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  • As some of you may know I've been wanting to implement data templates for items for years now. Here's the basics:

    What is a data template?

    It's basically something that would let us keep things like stats, cost and availability for an item all on one page. We currently use this method for champion stats. I have made some example/trial templates that you can see at User:NeonSpotlight/Data list, namely the difference between Health's code and User:NeonSpotlight/Health.

    Why use data templates?

    So that we can update the numbers on multiple pages by editing just one. This not only eases editing around patch time but also would be a huge boon to making sure all the information on the wiki is up to date and factually correct.

    What pages would be affected by changing to data templates?

    Like with the champ stat lists (ie: List of champions attack damage) the lists for items will be the primary target for these changes. Currently every stat page (Health, Attack damage, Ability power, etc.) has a list of items on it with full descriptions for each item. It's very easy for one or more pages to get skipped over accidentally around patch time.

    What are the downsides to implementing data templates?

    One of the big concerns I've heard comes from User:TehAnonymous who doesn't like data templates because they make editing noticeably harder for newer editors due to it not being very intuitive. There's some things we could do to try and alleviate some of that like using comments (<!--) in the source on the item page or adding a link into the item infobox to the data page. I think Bryght was working on a way to make it so we could put the data on the champion page itself but I have no clue if it works how a normal data template does or what.

    There's also the whole actually making and implementing the templates thing which seems to be an issue we have when it comes to large scale changes (just look at ability details).

    Discussion

    Basically do you support the movement, what areas do you think could be improved, what areas are you concerned about, what problems do you foresee occurring, the usual things.

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    • Took me some times to understand that... but at least I got it now.

      Good idea, but too lazy to help change anything...

      You got my moral support at least!

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    • I wish the wikia had a legitimate databasing feature for content like this. Would be much easier than having to create a "Template:Data_" for every single item. It would also making updating multiple pieces of data more easy (such as when everyone's armor was increased). I support this for databasing reasons, even if this isn't the most ideal solution to the problem.

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    • I'm personally indifferent on this.  My only issue would probably be if I can't change info from both rather than only being able to do one or the other.

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    • The problem I have with data templates is that it's hard to understand what the heck is going on. First time I encountered them I was like: "What the hell!" Once you get used to them it's actually not that bad.

      Supported on the condition that there's an actual manual/documentation that's extensive.

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    • Oh I found the Bryght thing I was thinking about: User:BryghtShadow/Sona. If you click edit you can see that all the data stuff is right on the page itself. As to whether or not the functionality of it is the same as what we're currently using is something Bryght would have to clear up because I have no clue how it works.

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    • Still don't get it, it sounds pretty confusing so I have to concur with user:tehanonymous

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    • D the pages are confusing as to what goes where

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    • I think it should definitely be done if the data template can be stored directly in the item's own page.

      If it can't be done that way.. I think it would be better to have data templates, with the same condition as Deshiba said-- documentation and a manual.

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    • It's only "confusing" because there's no edit button for the data on the page, short of adding one manually. This isn't inherently a problem, and is much less tedious than updating information across the entire wiki whenever Wriggle's Lantern's attack damage is reduced by 2.

      NeonSpotlight wrote: Oh I found the Bryght thing I was thinking about: User:BryghtShadow/Sona. If you click edit you can see that all the data stuff is right on the page itself. As to whether or not the functionality of it is the same as what we're currently using is something Bryght would have to clear up because I have no clue how it works.

      So does information put on that page update the information on Template:Data Sona?

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    • Emptylord wrote: So does information put on that page update the information on Template:Data Sona?

      I want to assume that's how it works, with the whole transclude section bit but Bryght never went into detail with me about it so I'm not sure.

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    • I support this, as long as there is some kind of tutorial for new editors

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    • NeonSpotlight wrote:

      Emptylord wrote: So does information put on that page update the information on Template:Data Sona?

      I want to assume that's how it works, with the whole transclude section bit but Bryght never went into detail with me about it so I'm not sure.

      Well that solves the issue of having a single data source while still being understandable to editors.

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    • All templates on this wiki made by anyone need more transparency
      and documentation. That's one of the big problems with relying/asking codemonkeys like Bryght, "make this thing into a template", and then nobody else knows what it does.
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    • In the german Wiki we already use this. The problem is, that newbies need some time to get used to it. :/ I like Data Templates, but do you really need this?

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    • Anvy wrote: I like Data Templates, but do you really need this?

      Yes. I think it would be a good first step to making the wiki easier to update patch by patch and maintaining correctness in our information, especially, as I wrote in the OP, in the item lists on stat pages.

      Considering the outdated information on the german wiki's cooldown reduction page like Will of the Ancients item Will of the Ancients still giving mana regen (not mentioning the lack of Twin Shadows or Forbidden Idol) or looking at the health regeneration page and seeing Face of the Mountain item Face of the Mountain still giving 25 hp5 instead of 20 makes me wonder how are you guys using data templates?

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    • Any chance of making a template for item actives? Like, when writing about what the Quicksilver effect is, it's a lot more concise to just name the active effect rather than write out that both QSS and Mercurial Scimitar can remove an effect.

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    • With these Item Data Templates proposed, information such as an item's active would be available for template usage.

      With something like:

      {{Item summary|Quicksilver|active=true}}

      You could get

      Quicksilver Sash item Quicksilver Sash - Active: Blah blah.

      That same template could also have "stats=true", "passive=true", etc.

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    • Ok sounds nice.  I'm in support.

      I know this isn't the topic and that others have expressed interest in it, but I hope one day we get pictures of objects when we mouse over them ala Hearthstone gamepedia.

      Still great work and keep it up!

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    • In the german wiki they are used for the search functions and the tooltips, but I see there are some really interesting ideas. :)

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    • Blaisem wrote: Ok sounds nice.  I'm in support.

      I know this isn't the topic and that others have expressed interest in it, but I hope one day we get pictures of objects when we mouse over them ala Hearthstone gamepedia.

      Still great work and keep it up!

      Like here? (Cursor over a champion and you get their information).

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    • Oh god no, if you make that a thing in the English wiki I'll stop using it altogether. It's cluttering, takes up time to implement and worse of all doesn't fulfill any useful purpose. You can't fit all the information in that box, meaning you'd still have to click the champion to go to the page, to find the information you'd need.

      It doesn't bring any benefit I can see at all.

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    • Deshiba wrote:
      Oh god no, if you make that a thing in the English wiki I'll stop using it altogether. It's cluttering, takes up time to implement and worse of all doesn't fulfill any useful purpose. You can't fit all the information in that box, meaning you'd still have to click the champion to go to the page, to find the information you'd need.

      It doesn't bring any benefit I can see at all.

      It can, but its a matter of taste.here This I find really good. You don't need to click on the link to see, what Skin or here (Using Data Templates) (you don't need to click on the Item for Informations :)). On the other hand it needs resources.

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    • Anvy wrote: It can, but its a matter of taste.here This I find really good. You don't need to click on the link to see, what Skin or here (Using Data Templates) (you don't need to click on the Item for Informations :)). On the other hand it needs resources.

      Actually, you still need to click 3 times to see the full screen image of the skin. Which is the same as just typing in Lee Sin Skin -> clicking Lee Sin/SkinsTrivia link that pops up and then selecting the skin you want to see full screen. And then the question remains, when, why and how many times would you actually use this. Like, once for a fancy smancy blog, 'cus it takes up less space?

      As for the items, first off they are hopelessly outdated with the elixirs not even showing their effects. And secondary, there's still the issue of information that's not included in there. If you'd include item combinations, total gold cost and Similar items to make it complete, then it'd be so big that it becomes a behemoth of a float box.

      I just don't see what this would achieve? How does this improve the experience of the wiki at all? I don't believe that serving our users with incomplete information is the best solution to whatever this is supposed to do.

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    • To clarify, I'm all for data templates on this wiki for the purpose of easy maintenance and automatic updating of changes so pages like Attack Damage have their item list up to date without manual intervention. Because it's well motivated and actually saves time for editors. So long as it's usable for all the editors, veterans and scrubby nublets.

      If you can motivate why you would want this outside of "Because it looks fancy", then I'm sure you could get more people behind this. So far, I'm not convinced this should become a thing.

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    • I personally think how the German wiki does it suffices - a selection of filters for key information, such as range and class, and the pop-up only displays the champion's name and title. The issue with solely using images is that new players do not recognise those images, which is why I added item-names back to the item list (and also helps with Ctrl+F); the issue with solely using large pop-ups is that it doesn't actually help the player find anything out. It's all about striking a balance between what is visually pleasing, convenient and functional.

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    • Can we fork this discussion? This was supposed to be about Item Data Templates. And I have more then 5000 characters to spend on the topic of floating boxes and why they should be shot in the knee with an arrow :)

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    • Deshiba wrote: This was supposed to be about Item Data Templates

      I agree, as with the item list template this discussion is just to get the big ball ball moving, finer details like how we use the data templates (outside of, obviously, the stat pages) can be discussed in another topic, especially something like tooltips which is big enough to warrant its own thread.

      Unfortunately, we're relying a lot on Bryght's same-page data template thing that I, for one, have no idea on how or if it works and whether or not it could be used for items.

      One thing though, if we're going to use them for the item pages themselves (one page of editing instead of two), we're going to need to tweak the item infobox template quite a bit and figure out/plan things like what stats should be listed in what order and like how we're going to do named passives links.

      My thoughts on some things:

      • Main stat listings: The obvious choice is alphabetical but, as always, could be a point of discussion, but I don't really see anything else taking priority over this.
      • Actives/passives: Actives first, Named passives second, unnamed passives third, fairly obvious.
      • Named passives: Probably going to have to be its own grouping or potentially two (name and effect) for the linking to work, open to thoughts on a more elegant solution
      • Availability: we could probably just use the already known map abbreviations like sr, cs, tt and ha for ease of use in the data templates
      • Tiers: Something that was being touched on in the item list discussion. Could either remove it from the item infobox entirely and not track it or just keep using it until we have a full blown discussion on the matter. Currently I say we should track it in the data templates and, if need be, we can switch it off in the infobox template
      • Recipes: I feel this could be tied to a data template, we may not be able to track the actual recipe components but we could just use the data templates to call the info so that when something like ruby crystal is changed we won't have to update all the pages that it builds into. The recipe template would just call the icon, name and cost from the data template

      I might come back with more but this is just what's off the top of my head atm.

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    • In-game client is typical unnamed passives first, since a lot of unnamed passives are simply "UNIQUE: +10% spell vamp" (i.e. just unique stats). I guess we could just add "Unique Stats". Speaking of stats, would Template:Data_Item simply have every statistics and then simply put the values next to the appropriate ones - or would it be a comma-list that we just string-explode? I'm just thinking for the purposes of creating a list of all items with attack damage on the attack damage page.

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    • I agree with TehAnon. While templates would help skilled editors make many changes quickly and easily, people who don't know too much about coding and editing will be... kinda thrown under a bus. I only know what little I learned in my semester long comp. science class in Highschool, and I don't think I could make easy edits with this new feature.

      If you were able to find a way to make it more intuitive and easy to grasp for beginners, then I would support this 100%

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    • This is an issue on the french wiki too. Our active editors are few and far between, largely due to the difficulty of the language. Due in part to this, a lot of pages fall behind and our stat pages tend to be out of date. I like the idea of item data to simplify editing so I'll do some fiddling on my end to try and make this work, though I can't honestly say that I'm going to be efficient.

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    • i can't wait for the day this item data template are implemented

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    • So, waiting for Bryght doesn't seem to be working and this discussion is fizzling out...

      Emptylord wrote: Speaking of stats, would Template:Data_Item simply have every statistics and then simply put the values next to the appropriate ones - or would it be a comma-list that we just string-explode? I'm just thinking for the purposes of creating a list of all items with attack damage on the attack damage page.

      It can be whatever we want, as long as it works... right?

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    • I'll sandbox one to see if I can get it neat and tidy - I know the jist of how the data template system it works.

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    • User:BryghtShadow/item_data

      I think Bryght's already done it. I hit Edit and what I assume to be nearly every item is there.

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    • Well, do you know how we can use that?

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    • an anonymous contributor
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