Hey, as part of a general user-rights cleanup, I noticed that you've only rolledback twice in the last six or seven months. However, since I see that you are still active on the wiki, so please reply if you would like to keep the rollback right. If you don't reply within a couple days, I'll remove the right, but don't hesitate to reply or otherwise contact me to add it back later. I reiterate: this isn't any form of punishment or discipline, just keeping user access levels tidy.
wriggles and Blade of the Ruined King are both kinda meh tbh. I think wriggles is just not at useful as before. I honestly get BT most of the time unless I need the extra CC or go aginst tanky foes becuase BotRK stack well with black cleaver and allows you receive maximum stacks from the BC twice as fast.
My Runes are movespeed quints with flat AD marks, flat armor yellows, and MR per level blues.
Masteries are 14-14-2 but do w/e you feel is neccesary. I got sorcery and both magic and armor pen in offense with there respective prequisites (the AD and AP per level) Mastery changes kinda borked Nidalee's choices. Wish they would just rework her so I can actually build something truly cost effective on her. No matter how you build her more than half her kit is going to be bleh.
Well I hope this helps anyway and have fun.
Oh and also Bevaria is quite a ways from where I came from :p I was born in Landstuhl more in the western side of Germany. Too bad my german is kinda bad. Haven't really used it in over 20 years.
This is me continuing with the conversation we are having about your rework.
I do try my best to avoid comparing one champion to the other, but that doesn't mean you are free to balance a champion around nothing. If you look at my argument, I rarely will go comparing one champion to another if I can, but I only used it because there needs to be at least some perspective.
About her Q, i didn't really care that it had low incentive to rank up because it just gave way for the strong incentive for her other two spells. It wasn't an issue IMO, but it could be change to be more even throughout the game instead of just being freaking strong late game.
If you really want to hear my opinion on primal surge, then I'll tell you everything I would do to it (besides completely reworking the effect). I would removed that passive effect. I would remove the AoE effect and just make it a single target buff. The duration would be lower, like to 4 seconds, and the cooldown would increase to around 16-12 seconds (scale downward but no lower than 12 seconds). The damage to health effect will be changed to life steal but the value is slightly higher and the bonus attack speed will be the same. (Yes, massive nerfs overall but its too strong for her as it is)
And about having more distinct feelings with different builds is fine, but u shouldn't be mixing her human and cougar form so much in terms of playstyle. Based on her skillset, her Human form is more support and poking while her cougar form is about the teamfight and mobility. You shouldn't try to force human Nidalee into strong fighter because that makes cougar unneeded. (This bit is more just my opinion though)
P.S. I would be grateful if you checked out my little Fiora Remake
You two don't have to reassure each other that you're not being hostile, because I feel it squanders the power of an arguement. Critique contains bias, so I tend to embrace bias. Just some thought food since you two know the other person isn't heckling you.
As Claris said, the depth that you mix the two forms is bad. Distinct advantages should exist for Human/Cougar form and AD/AP. That is why I liked the old heal, but it'd be truly unique to have a self-only Heal+Buff, which is a mix of the self-only steroid and the old heal. Think about what kind of damage you want on Nidalee as well. She has hybrid scalings, but what damage type does she deal? Also, how large should her AoEs be, and which ones will apply on hit effects? Personally, I want traps to eat people alive, and in light of that, we could make it stack, damage and all, so that you can't run into her bushes.
Cougar seems to be burst/DPS where Human has utility, range, and one big nuke. Therefore, making human form a platform for utility and making cougar a damage based form seperates the two. If you really like that damage-> heal spell, then remember that it should be instense and short or swapping between forms will get messy.
At this point there is only one thing I would even consider doing for the Primal Surge remake and that is separate the healing and attackspeed buff effects. one being active and the other being passive. Lifesteal only leaves room for AD/Bruisr Nidalee and my intention was to keep a healing effect that both could utilize effectively. A healing effect passive with an attackspeed active seems like the final option for me here. Take a look I will be implementing the change shortly. 30% is as low as I will go with the shred due to its stacking nature but i made all attacks only apply 1 stack, and reduced stacks to 6.
I want traps to be pure utility and while they can kill you I want them to be weak when hitting one but with a nice utility debuff and punishing if you go running through a mine field of them without stacking them being broken like JitB nests. Also i took ap scaling away from that to give to the improved passive.
Anyway thanks for all the feed back and even if I don't approve of it all I still appreciate it.
Hey look, you increase the duration on your attack speed buff. Clearly you don't mind seeing NId with 70% attack speed boost at all times. I feel like each time I complain about it, you just make it easier to have optimal up time. And look, you even reduced the mana cost to make it easier. I feel like everything I said had been 100% ignored. How great I feel.
Something I read a while ago about the worst kind of healing. It's not those that have high burst heals, it's those that are passively low heals but adds up a lot over time because they are always activate. Those are the one with the worst form of gameplay mechanic. Having a passive damage to health effect is like that because any offensive actions she performs is always healing her. It's just sustain with little counter play in the most ignoring way.
At least the armor/resist reduction went down and the method is harder, so I feel good somewhere. Still, I don't understand what's the point of the stacking feature. Really, I still don't understand it.
But geez, I finally know why this will go no where, your idea of balance is way way way higher than my idea of balance (which I assume the current Nidalee is not far off from). This is why with every nerf you do, you must always buff somewhere else because you firmly believe you reached that balanced. Apparently to you, the current Nidalee is unplayable or else, you just really really want an OP champion.
But I have a proposal for you, let me create my own complete re-work of Nidalee on your page for you to see. After what I show you what I wonder consider balance with your current set up (with some tweaks of my own), you can just remove it. Would you allow me to do that. (I don't feel like creating a new blog for this)
The real problem I see with the Passive on E isn't really the healing, but the fact that if you make the CD and duration short, then it forces you to go between human and cougar form a lot. This might actually be a GOOD thing, because it means you have to chooce between using it for your Spear or you can't stay in Cougar for optimal DPS.
Since Nidalee is a complex champion, it'd be interesting to make the Passive bonus apply only to Human, but the active still gets its full value on cougar. This means you can't Heal from half to full by using Pounce and Swipe on a minion wave 24/7. I mean, since Cougar gets the Shred, why can't Human have the sustain?
Actually I put it back at the original values till I could get a good handle on how steroids like this are generally treated in the cooldown area. I think a duration of 7 seconds with a 20 second cooldown would be fine. Although all your hate with the cooldowns did you ever think of her current cooldowns? She can get Primal Surge to a 6 second cooldown with a seven second duration on the current one just so you know.
As for healing I don't know where you got the idea that low amounts of damage based healing were a problem. From my experience it is always the type of healing that can be done completely passively that is generally the problem. Examples: High hp regen and burst heals - Mundo and soraka have these types.
Why are these bad and potentially toxic? HP regen is persistant non stop healing and you can do it in and out of combat. There is no real counter play for hp regen other than heal debuffs and heavy burst damage to take out the target quickly.
Burst heals allow you to basically erase damage that was just inflicted in combat or allow you to flee battle and regain a large portion of missing hp while out of combat.
When either of these types of heals are combined with high armor and MR attempting to damage these targets becomes even harder than if they just had one or the other.
The damage to heal is balanced in the way it returns hp and sustains you. You always have to be in combat to get the effect and it doesn't return hp based on raw damage. if you had 100 damage and 15% damage to hp you would not get back the expected 15 hp. If you target had 100 armor for instance and you dealt 100 damage you would only get about 7.5 hp back instead of 15 because your damage was reduced by 50%. 50% of 100 is 50 total damage dealt which translates to only 7.5 hp returned and you only get it if you are doing damage.
The reason I have the shred based on stacks is I don't want Nidalee getting an immediate huge chunk of reduction. lets say i just set it at 20% reduction on all attacks or just abilities with no stacks. I could just hit the whole enemy team and give my entire team bonus damage almost equal to a vlad ult. My intention was to have it high but mostly single target. She has AOE in cougar but you rarely clip more than 1 champion with her AOE. The main thing is I don't want Nidalee to have to build pen for MR and Armor due to half her kit being melee and grabbing items that allow her to survive melee doesn't leave room for pen items. You only see glass cannon AP Nidalee get pen items and all she does is toss Q and runaway. AP Nidalee even gets near and AD carry and she dies very quickly. Lastly like most melee without true gap closer Nidalee gets kited super easy in cougar form. That pounce does not help when you are being slapped with slows and I actually find slows to be the best way to catch and kill nidalee not hard CC like most other champions.
I honestly don't expect anyone to fully understand my state of balance but this isn't all stuff I came up with by myself. I played Nidalee before she was released and she was a much different champion then. After release I played about 3 different versions of Nidalee. AD/Bruiser Nidalee was the first Nidalee despite what people say. It got nerfed because she used to have a 60-280 hp heal with a flat 50 mana cost and her pounce could get down to a 1.8 second cooldown - This made Bruiser Nidalee and Hybrid CDR Nidalee really strong. After these nerfs AP Nidalee became really strong because they buffed heal and javelin ap ratio and missile speed(yes it was even slower).
If you wish to do your own version of the remake and post as a comment then so be it. I have no problem with that. I originally had a reworked based on her old damage resource dripping wound but once i got it together and seen how it worked I realized why they took it out. It worked kinda like darius but it was worse in some cases and broken in others.
As for Vahlderr - Look at it this way. If Nidalee didn't have Primal Surge or Bushwhack she would essentially have 0 utility. A champions value is generally based on what they can do by themselves and what they can do for the team. Some champions are really good solo and mediocre for the team, some are really great with the team but mediocre by themselves, and other kinda fall in between good by themselves and with the team. My aim is for the middle.
So what does Nidalee bring to the team: attackspeed buff for pushing, poking for sieging, and shred for team fights. I'm done for now. gotta get some sleep.
Sorry, been busy for the past few days so couldn't look at it sooner, but now that I have, I can say this.
Seriously, what are trying to achieve with this remake? And when I say this, I mean, what exact role are you trying to make Nidalee (both her forms) to become because it is seriously bugging me.
All your human form nidalee buffs suggest making her an AD carry which really really bugs me because she should not excel at that role since she has a melee form that is supposed to excel at being a burst fighter. (all my personal opinion though)
I mean, just look at her Primal Surge. The reason why the 100% uptime for her is annoying is because she's the one always getting 70% attack speed. A buff like this should be only given to those who are designed to be dealing damge. Why is she getting this? What exactly are you hoping this will achieve? And realistically, what do you thing will actually happen? This also includes the passive damage to health effect.
This really annoys me because your trying to push her away by being a support and making her human form more about its damage when she already has her cougar form for that. (Though, this is me liking her being support in human, and team fighter in cougar)
I do notice the revert on Bushwhack, but then I see Swipe, and I go, WTF! This is purely my personal taste, but I hate seeing spells that do the same thing in their kit already (regardless if one is more usable then the other)
Overall, this remake change is nothing special. I see the tweaks, but many of the problems I still see persisting are concept problems. I like it when champions kit flow with each other and attempt to be one style (in her case two different style) without much overlapping or repetitiveness.
Nidalee really wasn't meant to be a support to begin with and I don't support her being a full fledged support. She requires gold to be useful and she lacks the necessary utility and CC to protect allies so like it or not support Nidalee is not very good. I never intended to rework her for support. This was aimed at solo mid and top and this is probably a flawed kit due entirely on what is required to be a strong top lane champion. if this kit didn't have the shred she would lose to most top lane champions. It is a serious snowball lane and her sustain is weak early on but picks up once she gets damage.
The reason I made her Primal surge damage to health is due to her getting almost nothing back from spellvamp and lifesteal only working with physical attacks. without a burst heal she needs good damage based sustain because she will only be getting hp back from dealing damage.
I see your annoyance with the cooldown but I honestly can't take it down much further. There are plenty of champions that get the same type buffs that either can get 100% uptime or greater than 100% uptime.
The main aim of this rework was to actually make her more of a duelist rather than her current hit and run tactic. You can't deal very much sustained damage so you have to constantly hit and run dealing bursts of damage and then running away. While this might seem alright for lane dominance it is actually pretty weak. If your opponent doesn't die they come back rejuvenated and stronger. Your next attempt at hit and run gets weaker as they level and most other tops snowball really hard while Nidalee doesn't really snowball much at all. Your damage output stays at about the same level all game. This is why she is generally good at killing squishies but completely falls off when the enemy team starts doing more damage.
I could have used the dripping wound concept instead of the shred one but I wanted to keep as much of it as simple as possible. Dripping wound would apply to all attacks but act similar to her shred except only she would benefit from it and allies would not.
Also, I want to say, if they just make it so that cougar form is more usable and can actually be useful in team fights, than Nidalee's kit would be all perfect. Well, that's what I would think at least.
That last point is nice. If Cougar puts her in melee range, it should make her tanky enough to sit in melee range. The sweet irony is that the Heal from Human Form is better than whatever you'd get from being a Cougar.
Sagee Prime wrote:
The main aim of this rework was to actually make her more of a duelist rather than her current hit and run tactic. You can't deal very much sustained damage so you have to constantly hit and run dealing bursts of damage and then running away.
That's the point of Cougar form. Cougar form is where she is supposed to get her sustained damage. My problem is that your trying to make her human form has high sustain damage as well.
Yes, her early game will not be the strongest duelist, but she step aside that weakness quite a bit until level 6 because of her sustain and poke. Once she hits level 6, her cougar form can start being the duelist you want.
Another thing, if you wanted to make her a better duelist, then why were you also adding so much team buffs and benefits into her kit then. This is why your remake was so flustering to read for me because you say one thing, but half your changes was pointed towards a different goal.
Sagee Prime wrote:
I see your annoyance with the cooldown but I honestly can't take it down much further. There are plenty of champions that get the same type buffs that either can get 100% uptime or greater than 100% uptime.
I honestly would not care that much about the cooldown if 'she' wasn't a range supportish champion. The issue with this is that you're trying to make her a duelist by giving her this. That's my main issue. For example, if this 100% uptime attack speed buff was only possible on cougar, I would be a lot less resistent. (I'm not suggesting that you move it or anything).
And also about your 'plenty of champions give same type buffs be up 100%' and I can say, 'they are all melee by default". Give me two champions that's not melee that has a self-buff that has 100% uptime. Kog is the closest one, but even he doesn't have 100% uptime.
Nidalee with this effect is not melee, she's a range champion. She shouldn't be getting melee type bonuses because she is range which makes her safe. That's why the cooldown is such an issue (with along all the other buffs you used to have to make her a stronger DPSer).
Also will like to add, the reason why her support skill is kind of weak is because she isn't design to be played as a full support, because she has Cougar form to deal a lot of damage. She's suppose to be offensive, but with like some supporting skills.
But once again, the Cougar form is the problem with her kit. It doesn't live up to what it needs to be to make people what to use it.
Due to her "support" nature, I'd say that a shred on Cougar would be good because her allies benefit from it, letting you give Nidalee less scaling and base damage. What are we going to replace it with for Human form?
tbh this rework is meant as a way of going beyond simple tweaks and is really there for brainstorming for ideas. Making it 100% balance is impossible in this form of conceptualization and is not my intention. What I have gained from this is good insight on what would make current Nidalee much better. I will list off what I have so far:
The change to her passive - Extra damage on auto attacks based on 20% of AP that synergies with takedown. This could also be changed to a passive effect on both human and cougar Q that is only gained from ranking Q.
This boosts early game power of AP Nidalee and boosts cougar damage out put.
Javelin Toss reliability buffs with/without AD ratios - faster speed, lower base, and higher scaling.
Makes Javelin Toss weaker early game for the idiots that can't dodge but makes them stronger later and mush easier to land so at least it should hit more often making up for the loss in damage against good players or bad.
Bushwhack - at the very least mana cost reductions
While the benefits of maxing it go up the mana cost goes up way too much for how unreliable it is.
Primal Surge - really high mana cost.
I'd like it to synergize with her kit better and for it to not have a cast time. It's really nice when you don't have to target yourself. I wouldn't be outside removing the ability to cast on allies but I really don't want to completely remove support aspects.
Aspect of the cougar - simple tweaks to unit collisions and AP scaling on defenses would work wonders on AP Nidalee.
Pounce - Broken wings controls would do allot of good hear.
Swipe - This seriously needs something. All it does is poor scaling raw damage. It needs better scaling and utility added to it.
My last though on swipe was to make it a 2 part skill. Nidalee swipes her claws dealing half magic and half physical damage and shredding armor and MR with each hit. You completely dislike shred but its the only utility I can think to add to her kit that makes sense and fits the skill.
One thing I know we will keep disagreeing is that Human form Nidalee does not need that much extra damage. Clearly you think she needs to be able to damage a lot, while I don't believe it needs to since she has cougar form. This is why I continue to not like your remake at all. There are simply way too many buffs to increase Human form Nidalee damage output.
The cougar form is personally what I think you should focus more with all these damage buff, not her human form. More ideally, her Cougar form DPS and ability to stay alive longer.
1) I haven't complain about this skill that much, since, well, it's not that strong. It would be a nice little boost in damage. But I still hold the complaint that Human Nidalee doesn't need this passive as it's trying to promote her to auto-attack more. But I can see with all your other changes that you are seriously trying to promote more auto-attacks with human nidalee by increasing her DPS with all those changes.
But personally, you say you want to make sense with your skills and I say, how does this make sense as an innate passive?
2) You want more reliably damage, that's fine. You want more reliably damage with higher scaling... that's a bit pushing it, but still fine. You want more reliably damage with higher scaling and with lower cost to spam it more.... that's still pushing it and making her extremely annoying, but still fine.... assuming something is being given up. And you do.... you do it at a decent agree, hence, I don't complain about it at all.
3) It's a trap. How is it supposed to be more reliable? But being so unreliable, they gave it a really strong effect of 12 seconds of vision and up to 40% shred of both armor/magic resist. That is a very strong effect that kind of makes up for the unreliability. But the mana cost reduction is fine. I personally don't have an issue with that. (until quickly noting that you reduce the mana cost for all her other spells so they cost nothing)
4) You just want her to excel being a DPS range champion, admit it. That's why you want this thing to be on her at all times. There's no other excuse. This is why I hate this remake so much, but it's my personal hate, so, yeah. It's my personal hate and what I believe Nidalee should not be like.
5) I would agree with you that making her more tanky would be good, but with all increase scaling, base damage, and increase scaling, it really makes me question if she needs all of that. Then, let's not forget all the buffs your doing to human form to make her a better fighter.... sigh.
6) That would be nice. Movement collision is always annoying and it's better to have a champion flow neatly.
7) It probable does need something for it, that, I won't disagree. I think your right when it's a poor scaling raw damage skill. Adding something to it would be great.
And I don't dislike shred. I just don't like how you were using it. On the first remake, you had it a high amount with a way too easy simple method to obtain it. On the second change, you still had it on a high amount with a still simple method to obtain it (It still took less than 2 seconds to get max stack). On the third, you finally lowered it down to a somewhat still high amount but a lot harder method (so I didn't complain much, I was just saying how i found the stacking feature very weird on a kit that didn't flow with AS unless you made huge huge changes). On the fourth one with is the current set up, I dislike it because you have two source of shred.
Also, the amount of increase damage it does for Nidalee should be taken accounted for. I believe shred is a powerful tool and it shouldn't be used so carelessly. I not hating the shred, I'm hating how you're implementing it.
One problem I want to avoid which she is semi stuck in right now is one form being much less useful when building a certain way. Morello had originally stated that they might lower her base damages and give her AD scaling in cougar and leave human as AP scaling giving two direct paths to build. The problem is that she becomes really deficient when one form is weak due to the way another form builds.
Both forms have to have synergy for her to function well. Despite him being OP Jayce is an example of how Nidalee should have been made. His kit scales primarily on one stat and he doesn't need to build for 2 stats. all of his skills have some sort of utility about them.
From this conversation, I can see that you've given ClariS permission to post a rework as a comment and "clean up messy text".
I reverted the change as I saw a large majority of your (Sagee) contribution on the page removed, while being replaced by ClariS's remake, which does not comply with the agreement I see here. If you have no problem with ClariS's rework hijacking your blog, I will not oppose your decision, though I think it would be more appropriate if ClariS uses their own blog for it.
I have no idea what you are talking about Vahldeer. I never read anything about this Nidalee and Jayce thingy. I just got depressed over somethings outside of here. I'm been in a bitter mood so I been acting rather erratic then normal for myself. So I apologize.
Also, if u wish to check out what type of changes I would do to Nidalee, just go to my profile page. I have it listed under 'Things I do for Fun', but I highly doubt your find anything useful there.
I apologize for everything that may have caused wasted time, confusion, frustration, or any other form of emotion that isn't good. I take full blame for anything
ClariS, the biggest problems are the ones you don't tell people about. Take this message wall for instance. You just say you're done, then come back and say you're done, nothing is interesting, but you never give any reasons about WHY, which were so abundant beforehand. I won't pressure you into anything, however, and it's certainly not something to post PUBLICLY.