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What are we discussing?

Hello everyone.

Today's topic is about the removal of Feirund's Chat moderator status. I'd like to first make clear that the removal of Cmod does not impede on his ability to function as a moderator: His rights on-wiki remain intact. The demotion is specifically regarding his behavior in chat.

Users in chat have requested this action be taken against Feirund due to claims of aggressive behavior (bullying of users who oppose him) and retaliation on behalf of other users in chat who have come under due to personal bias. This has led to both verbal abuse of other users and one instance of a complete rescindment of another chat moderator's one month chat ban on the user Nystus, given the reasoning "The user deeply regrets his actions", which has been proven time and time again (and admitted by the user himself) to be false.

I initially removed his chat moderator rights upon hearing the report to prevent further abuse, then provided him with an appeal message. Here's how it went. Note that within two responses I'm met with hostility and fairly vile language. [removed snide remark inferring the double standards held by the bureaucracy concerning promotions/demotions]. I'm called useless, incompetent and generally abusive. Further elaboration in chat details me as "the worst member of staff I've [Feirund] has ever seen on this wiki". Hilariously enough, the weeks prior to this incident have been filled with positive conversation between him and I, even to the point where he had reported to me two unrelated demotion requests of the chat moderators V3hemenc3 and SirAston, both of whom I followed up on per his instruction.

And, in a manner similar to my initial appeal request, I'd like those to keep watch of things that Feirund will undoubtedly say and make sure that they have not been cherrypicked heavily to support his case. And, if I've been similarly skewed, make sure to let me know so I can remove or adjust specific points.

Users that have gripes concerning the accused Chat moderator's behavior or ability should also come forth, as I may have missed points as well. ~ Demise101 @ Talk! @ Contribs! ~ 00:56, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Feirund's response

I'll just copypaste my response: The only things I consider fully true about the above statement is what's been captioned and wikialinked. As a chat moderator, I have always aimed to be as forgiving as possible - I do not believe in punishment against our fellow man, unless said fellow man has absolutely no other purpose in being here than to hurt other people present. That is why I always suggested forgiving people/letting them off with a warning/banning them for a short amount only/at the very least, letting them speak their mind in self-defense. If you check my chat ban log, you will see that I had only banned regular chat visitors twice - once for a day and another time when things had really gotten out of hand. Furthermore, I shortened the second ban upon getting confirmation from the offended that he will rethink and mend his ways - therefore, any accusation about me performing "bullying of users who oppose him", I consider slander.

That is all I will say in my defense - I can only ask my fellow friends and chat visitors to come forth and speak the truth about how I really operate in the chat. Yours truly, Feirund (talk) 01:09, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

General discussion

1 2 4 5 6 7 8Linkage to the entire chat event. Currently I am going to come in as a neutral observer before I initiate forward an actual discussion about this. Zenketsu (talk) 01:46, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Well, since you requested the truth, I guess I'll say my piece:
1. Your merciful attitude involves a certain user who has performed repeated offenses in the chat including but not limited to linking pornography (which violates rule 3 of the chat rules) and discussing controversial topics without unanimous consent (violation of rule 10). The user clearly stated that he would not change willingly, and yet said keeps showing up in chat. If a user gets consistently banned over and over again because said user keeps doing the same offense, then the chances of the user changing his behavior is quite slim.

2. Regarding "Bullying of users who oppose him", I seem to recall you saying you'll "make my life miserable" if the certain user leaves after I banned him for (once again) violating the third rule of the chat. Not to make anything personal, but that's not something that should be said to a user, much less another chat moderator.

That's my two cents. All in all, I just don't think chat moderators coddle a user that much. v3hemenc3 (talk) 8:35, November 16, 2015 (GMT +7)

Feirund has made some mistakes, but he isn't me. The personal attacks he made against you seem to have fueled more of a personal vendetta. One transgression (that, to my knowledge, didn't even result in the return of the banned user before action could be taken) is not enough for the complete removal of chat moderator rights. I know my opinion probably doesn't hold much value around here anymore, but that's it. Give him a spanking and send him to his room, don't cut off his hands. Sejuani OriginalSquare Ozuar (Talk) 03:02, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Just thought I'd drop by and give some of my thoughts into this.

Anyway, Feirund, as a chat moderator and content moderator has always been sort of efficiency based from my experiences with him. Personality wise, he can be a rather... strange fellow to converse with or understand at times, but besides that, he usually tends to try to do what he either sees as best or whatever is right. Among the active chat moderators I know now, I personally think he strives the hardest, and is among the friendlier members in chat.

That said, Feirund is still a person, and does have his own frustrations and opinions regarding what can be improved or not. These opinions may sometimes come off as harsh and condescending, but I'm pretty sure the wiki is all too familiar with this sort of attitude. I'm not saying this is entirely excusable, merely that, professionally, one may as well take this sort of attitude as nothing more than criticism.

About the whole Nystus thing, I've never agreed with him about it due to my past grievances with said user, but Feirund does have a point in saying that he IS hoping for Nystus to help out the wiki again, as he did before, since Nystus was a rather helpful user in setting up the wiki if older members are to be believed. Feirund's trust may have been misplaced here, but atleast he was trying to get a useful, contributing member back to working on the wiki, though I will admit he could've been a bit more honest about where he was going with this, as he did with me.

Feirund linking pornography though... eh. No real comment on that. All I'm trying to say is, for all these screw ups, Feirund is trying to make the wiki and the wiki chat a better place through the only means he knows and can. I don't think many, or anyone at all, would agree with me, but I'm pretty sure Feirund is among the best chat mods we have right now, and should atleast be given one last chance before he takes the fall.

-- アカリ, The Fist of Shadow (talk) 03:14, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Feirund is a.... as akali stated above "strange" person, but i will say that he's quite a friendly person to anyone, a bit too lenient for a chat moderator, there have been a few incidents of him not living up to the best aspects of a chat moderator, but i've personally witnessed that he can  defuse a large portion of arguments that have taken place in the chat in a proper manner. 

As for nystus, I admit that Feirund HAS been very attached to Nystus and I agree that trying to get him back to helping maintain the wikia ( unrelated but feirund works really hard as expected of his mod status ) is a good intention, though nystus has very well stated that he refuses to change his behaviour so unbanning him wouldn't have been the best decision, ( however, if this is the ban that is in my memory, Feirund unbanned nystus a few days before his ban, however nystus did not return for a fairly long period so there was hardly any damage done ) 

As for linking pornography, i'm absolutely against that and i have warned him several times not to allow nystus or anyone else to post pornography before which doesn't seem to have had any effect. 

I would say to let him keep his Chat moderator rights, but keep him under a watchful eye for a period of time to see if he repeats his mistakes, which if uncounted for leaves a very hard working Chat mod in this place. 

Yours Sincerely, Bloodstrider~ (Talk~ ) 07:08, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

A question towards Demise:

Who are these so-called "people" you claimed that want him to be dealt with? If anything, combined with Zenketsu's logs, it only seemed like personal user vendetta, as I can speak here as part of the regulars on League Chat that none of us really had any major issues with Feirund. Mineko Charat Lucky (talk) 13:16, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Claris here. I'm not going to try to be too negative about this, so I'm just going to say, none of the things I seen really warrents this demoting. The link porn was done around people I know who do not have an issue with it and his overall behavior has never striked me as wroth demoting. Not the nicest person, but his actions is in the good health of the chat and good at maintaining at least a respectable level.

I do want to hear these 'people' that do oppose him though, since this is the last piece of evidience you claim exist, but I don't have any information on and it could change my opinion. So I would like to hear this. On Feirund behavior when he found out what you did is completely warrent because you, Demise, did something wrong that even I would be pissed off if it was done to me. You started this off in a horribel way that already set this to go down a bad path. No warning for an active member of the chat who has done very little to warrent the demoting.

- ClariS (talk) 18:17, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Dropping by again to request what the last two people have requested for; Users that have felt that they've been bullied and threatened by Feirund's actions. Currently it feels as if you're only trying to frame Feirund for personal reasons and not law-breaking ones. Zenketsu (talk) 18:49, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Haven't seen a single piece of evidence besides "you let this person back" or "you did this thing," but the only things you're actually showing us are him defending himself, then picking out the tiniest little sentences that were ever-so-slightly rude (but very-much-so called for) and making it sound like he threatened to kidnap and then eat your firstborn child. ~~~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by JasonWildBlade (talkcontribs)

  1. I suggest removal of Demise101's right to edit anything in the wiki as he is raping the tools. From nicely nested and easily followed discussion thread to a wiki _article_. Well done ffs, please don't play anymore.
  2. I can't find any actions that would make Feirund a bad mode. I do find his actions quite human. Humans are not always 'there' even when online, humans have bad days and not all humans go gently to the night without putting up a fight. To me his response to the (weakly based) assault is quite mild. I give it a 3 out of 10 in 'WHAT-THE-HELL-ARE-YOU-DOING' scale. Specially as he is targeting his pun the accusations weaknesses. I found them rather amusing.
  3. Does someone really use the chat? If so, why? I'd rather use ingame chat any day or read the help files for help. More over to the point, why would anyone under 18 go through some minor games wikias chat log to get porn links? Or was there people online in that point of time that found it offensive? If not, whats the real deal here?
  4. People are different and saying he is different all the time tells something about you, not about him.
  5. Some documents on these bullying and threats or they should be dropped now as hear say.

-- Feed and love BlackSmith (talk) 20:42, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the previous statement from JasonWildBlade, the over exaggeration of the situation is uncalled for. The man had reacted in a way we all would in these events or have the chargers forgotten that they too have fallen to the same behavior. We are all human and make mistakes in our wording in the matters at hand, but that doesnt mean we cant just talk this out with more cooled heads. But I have to digress a bit and say that what BlackSmith said is also true, though his statement may also be seen in the similar light as Feirunds. --Tesla Effect (talk) 21:00, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to address every above statement individually because it's easier to follow. And, again, let me say for the third time that this was a response to another user's gripe. In 24 hours following this reply, I will ask them on message walls to provide their evidence (assuming I don't come in contact with them). If they do not speak up in the following I'm closing this thread and personally apologising: At the end of the day this isn't my problem nor is it my evidence, I was asked to deal with this and I took action quickly because I was aware that something of this nature would happen when Feirund was nominated for rights. I have no gripe with Feirund as a person - we play a specific game (Crawl) and we've talked very often. I do, however, want to make sure that reports given to me are dealt with. I stated in my initial point that I have also taken reports from Feirund about chat mods, namely Aston and Veh.

For both Ozuar and Akali, who are pretty much at this point going to back one another up in any discussion as they've taken a us v wiki approach, I'd like to say that I don't find either opinion apparent on the basis that they are both currently chat banned due to a myriad of offenses ranging from actual chat mod abuse (Ozuar banning people from chat at the request of Akali following his block from chat) to death threats and vicious behavior towards users and chat moderators. I actually removed the initial response to stem the argument, but this thread which continued despite my interference shows the kind of attitude one of them has (speaking, of course, on chat moderator qualities and not user qualities). While you may then go on to argue that their previous presence in chat still warrants them a say, at the same time these are both ex-chatmods that have been demoted due to abuse due to personal reasons (in the same way Feirund is being nominated under). Furthermore, the general theme of arguments "He's just a human" shouldn't be the crux of the argument in this case as the issue has been consistent over several months, removing the excuse of "bad days", which are erratic, and the point itself is that he uses his rights to get a free pass in chat (i.e. defend or unblock friends using the star as leverage, browbeat others, post pornography).

I'd like to actually point out to Blacksmith that this is the old style of forums, which have been used since the wiki's inception, unlike the new walls that had been added to appease commenters (read: Not editors). This is not a Mainspace Wiki article, but a subpage of the wiki's discussion page (ideal for discussion). Not only that, but it was suggested to me to move it to this thread by another crat - Neon - (seen here). I'd like you to apologise for being uncivil, or you will be blocked under the precedent which Teh had set concerning LionsLight earlier this year (6 month block I believe). As for your points, I don't possess the links as the people who had the initial gripe do. I will ask them to join the discussion. "Minor Game Wikia" brings about some concern as 3.8 million hits per week doesn't really seem minor to me. We are one of the larger wikis on Wikia and, prior to the introduction of the WAM scoring system I believe we ranked between number 1 and 2 (not sure how the WAM system works). So, we tend to get a lot of traffic. Since the Wiki caters to 13 year olds and above (not above 18), pornography is a no-go. Also, if you didn't get it despite me repeating myself over and over, this is regarding Chat moderator, not actual Moderator: The two are no longer linked following a request to Wikia from myself earlier this year. If you do not care about chat, I don't think you're in the right discussion because this is about a feature that clearly other people use when you do not.

To Claris and Mineko, I removed his rights and allowed him to appeal afterwards for two reasons. First, the demotion worked to prevent potential abuse in future - The same was done to me earlier this year, as I was also demoted without discussion. Second, as with many promotions with the Feirund, I was also afraid that holding a discussion first would yield absolutely no results, with previous records of an 8-5 chat mod being passed (which ended with: good points guys we'll be careful to check for future behavioral issues) and a 4-2 being covertly passed despite publicly resulting in failure. These are good examples of how unnecessary it has to have discussion on the wiki, so I followed suit. I did, however, choose to notify and allow him to discuss with me, and lodge an appeal (which he apparently did in chat, leading to yet another overturn). Also, The logs that were given by Zenketsu are actually completely unrelated to the issue itself, as they were done yesterday or the day before depending on time zones and not 4 days ago (the time of the report).

And, to Jason, please read what I linked in my initial statement. I didn't copy-paste it because I assumed people trying to discuss would read the whole wall, as that was the intent of the link, but if I have to I will. More screenshots will come out in future. Also, to provide context to you, the user we're talking about is an admin that was demoted for abuse, who returned to chat over and over to generally pester users and ignore policies. I vaguely remember a conversation I had with him on his secondary account used to dodge the block someone had put on him, in which he told me to ban him forever if I wanted him gone, as he would not change his ways without drugs or something as dramatic. So there's that. ~ Demise101 @ Talk! @ Contribs! ~ 04:13, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

So, what you're basically trying to say is: "Your argument is invalid because you're banned from chat."? Yes, I understand that I was, infinitely even. But in no way am I commenting here in an "Us Against Them" manner. I tried to be as neutral as possible in the points I tried to make, and if I truly was against the Wiki, I wouldn't give a damn about you keeping one of the most competent chat moderators you have. I don't want to delve any deeper into another problem when we're already discussing the one at hand, but you shouldn't simply leave out opinions just because "they misbehaved", especially when there are still fair points to be evaluated.
Also, I'd like to point out that, while yes, I was a previous chat moderator AND moderator, I had my chat mod rights removed because of the decision that moderators should share both rights, not because I was demoted. Later, I had asked for removal of my mod rights by TehAnonymous, on the grounds of me feeling that there are many better moderators around, and, I didn't want to have to resort to pointing fingers or putting blame here, you suddenly started private messaging me in chat, smack talking to me about my 'competency' and how 'useless' I was. You want to complain about Feirund's harsh and vile language? You couldn't even be the least bit civil when you criticized me then.
Back to Feirund. Strange as he is, he is perhaps the most readable moderators once you know what he's trying to do or accomplish, and is one of the better ones you have right now. And if you're sick of hearing the excuse of 'He's human, he makes mistakes' excuse, just know that compared to the other moderators, he's the least human of them all, and actually makes things happen right.
-- アカリ, The Fist of Shadow (talk) 06:51, November 17, 2014 (UTC)
@Demise101, For your personal concerns on me I fail to see any of you points but I do start to see Feirund's. This is not any old style of discussion format, Talk is the name space for the old school discussions and as many old wikieditors know this format is horrible way for discussion more than simple matters as for its limitations of formatting, quoting and discussion splitting. This discussion subpage you are referring as a 'subpage of the wiki's discussion page (ideal for discussion)' I have only one thing in my mind[1]. It is not actual discussion page/forum in any concept level. I don't count having a NCL script pull out a list about category members a full grown discussion feature. Before phrasing that more, please familiarize yourself by Wikias already build in feature Special:Forum that actually works like a discussion forum, includes all the basic discussion tools and *drum roll* has inbuilt notification feature!
For what uncivil I should be sorry and what precedent you are talking about I don't know. To me your kind of commenting about me is quite same as this whole matter with Feirund, hear say and slandering by author figure behind the subjects back. Sorry but I am too old for play cloak and dagger with people talking bullshit about others behind their backs and if someone with any kind of power user level does it, it makes me boil. I am also too old and grumpy to be a parrot. If you can't answer the question, can't provide a counter point or otherwise know how to argumentation works, I will pull out my trout.
For the part about the topic, I rephrase as you obviously missed point, what is the likelihood that a kid knows how to and also goes pulling chat logs from a minor games unofficial, minor, wiki? i.o. What is the chances that the shared link with those people, at that time in a very limited audience, is ending up to a under aged persons hands versus the punishment of loosing a chat moderator. Because, that is the only valid point I am seeing this far from the wall of texts. And no, moderating people is not nice (number of people I have perm banned: 1k+). And yes, this wiki's chat is a (barely) minor compared to any real chat, e.g. irc channels, ingame chat, chat chat.
Sorry for the repeat for those that got the idea the first time. I am confident the persons with +admin make good decision but my quota for the horrible-discussion-format per day & parroting is full so I am out. BlackSmith (talk) 09:47, November 17, 2014 (UTC)
When people actually put in the time and dedication to format their responses (nesting replies, replying to specific points instead of in general, placing responses properly and, *cough* spacing their posts properly) this is a much better way of supporting more serious discussions as it can fully support a complete discussion by allowing back and forth discussions to branch off into their own subsections instead of being swept up in the continual forward motion that the new forum uses. Obviously some of our newer users (aka most of who's posting) don't understand how to format properly so I'll probably have to make a short posting guide for the next serious discussion we have. Also, as an aside, I still don't get why you keep calling this a minor game's minor wiki when League is the most played multi-player PC game and we're consistently one of the most viewed wikia wikis, this doesn't really affect anything because our chat is fairly minor in and of itself but it bugs me to see you keep repeating this misinformation.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  01:36, November 20, 2014 (UTC)

Just wanted to leave another piece of evidence here: Link to TehAnonymous' Talkspace. I respect Teh's response, but paired with the above evidence, it's kinda obvious that Fei is VERY attached to Nystus, who has repeatedly broken the rules not only in the past, but also recently (mostly by posting certain kinds of pictures or talking about controversial stuff without consent). That, of course, ruined a lot of his reputation. This is largely a matter of "being competent otherwise" versus "being trustworthy in his competence" here, at least in my eyes.

In addition, no matter how much you love or hate Fei on a personal level (he's a mixed bag for me, both good qualities and bad qualities), he still posted pornography in a age 13-chat. And, just to prepare beforehand, the possible argument "There were only known adults at this point" is moot because of the chat's ability to show the past few lines of the chatlog when you enter the chat. You never know when a newcomer might enter the scene. SirAston (talk) 11:40, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

Not to seem like a nuisance or anything, but it's been over 24 hours and the initial people who filed the complaint do not appear to have shown up. Evidence against Feirund as well as general public opinion of him (judging solely by this page) don't really seem to be incriminating enough to justify the removal of his rights. My question now is - Are we closing the thread? Sejuani OriginalSquare Ozuar (Talk) 02:29, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

Claris back again. I wish to say to any of the people who had the reason to complain, please, speak up. If Feirund indeed did something wrong, such as bully you or banning you for no reason, do not keep this hidden. These are things that should be dealt with, but if you keep your voice unheard, then nothing will be done because apparently no one saw it.

@Demise, I hope you knew the situation well, and if you really did, then what I say after this does not really apply to you. If not, this is why I'm shocked by what you did.

Demoting the mod before the mod even gets a word in is a horrible practice that builds distrust within the structure of our staff. Our staff does not consist of random people. Out staff consist of people who at least have shown the willingness and dedication help the wikia maintain and improve itself, and they were supported by others. They should be held at a higher stander, but at the same time, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Let alone, no one here gets paid doing this. We invest are free time to maintain and improve the wikia because we want to.

What you did just undercut any trust. Unless the mod was truly abusing his powers, you should have at least given him a chance to explain himself. If we're gonna just get demoted without much of a notice, and then have to argue to get it back, what was the point of working so hard to build the trust of getting promoted in the first place.

You claim you demoted before hand to stop his abuse of his power, but my question and i know a lot of other people wonder as well, how bad was this abuse that Feriund was doing that warrent demoting him at the instance? I am struggling to find whoever was abused by Feriund, so it's hard for me to support you on this Demise. There are even other chat mods who doesn't seem to really have caught this abusive use of his power based on how the replied here, and they all aren't chummy & best friendly with Feirund. They don't have real strong motivates to lie about his injustice. Look at SirAston, if Feirund was indeed doing something horrible, I know he would have reported it if he had any idea about this.

I do not wish to believe you did this with any personal agenda, but rather, a poor lapse of judgement. You should have use your judgement and weighed if this abuse was true and if it really was that harsh to implement rush action. This might have happened to you in the past, but that isn't a reason to keep something that is unfair and wrong. I have not read all the rules to the finest detail on the wikia, but I do know that there exist that human judgement is allowed to make the final verdict, and you Demise, should have shown some faith to Feriund. He may not be the nicest person around, but he has shown dedication and willingness to improve this wikia.

And I'm not writing all of this because I'm Frieund's friend. I'm writing this because I don't want to see people hung up on this bureaucracy. I might not be the most active member anymore, but I say to EVERYONE:

"For any problems not-directly related to coding, do not hesitated to message me on my wall. I'll do everything in my power as a mod to help you."

Though, as I said at the beginning, if someone actually does come out and explain what this abuse was, we should deal with this and like 99% of what I just said doesn't really apply to you Demise.

- ClariS (talk) 05:00, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

Closing Statement

  • Not done Not done The user called in to respond within 24 hours has failed to do so - therefore, with the acknowledgement and consent of Demise101, I am now closing the discussion. I get to keep my rights, but I will keep whatever complaints may have been made in mind as I carry out my duties in the future.

...I sure am glad that's over. Feirund (talk) 12:50, November 20, 2014 (UTC)

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