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This took me a long while to think of, and I now have a decision.

Unlike general blog posts (GBP hencceforth) which actually spawn meaningful discussion for this otherwise static wiki and can actually be quality controlled, custom champion concepts (CCC henceforth) hardly bring any beneficial discussions to readers/wikians, doesn't really have anything to do with the league bar kit rulings, and you cannot remove a horribly designed/formatted concept unless it violates the rules, something you can do on GBP and mainspace articles. - My suggestion here is to perform a total cleanup and delete all CCC (that includes mine, just saying) and from this point onwards prohibit any creation of future CCC. Champion rework discussions could be exempted from this rule, as they are about existing champions in the first place.

P.S. Don't give a "we don't have enough staff" or "we're too lazy to delete all of them" reason to not implement this ban, I can and will eventually delete everything if it's approved. Mineko Charat Lucky (talk) 13:42, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

I like it. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 14:51, December 12, 2013 (UTC)


I think as an alternative to the blogspam that happens with custom champions, as they are, all users should be allowed to make their custom champ concepts as sandbox/personal pages under their own username (like User:NeonSpotlight/Soandso) and maybe make the personal file/month limit stricter if that's also seen to be a problem. Comments and whatnot could be made via a discussion section on the page or on a subpage.  Also, if we were to delete all CCCs we'd have to give people warning and a certain amount of time to save their concepts somewhere else.  NeonSpotlight  Talk  Contribs  15:07, December 12, 2013 (UTC)


As a user who makes a lot of custom champions, I might be biased against this, but I don't think this is the way to go. The two main problems with custom creations are the unfinished champion template spam, and the space taken up by custom creation blog posts to the detriment of general interest blogs (i.e. news and/or discussion of actual LoL-related features). The "custom champion" tag is ineffective at providing a separation, as you likely already know from having to suffer going through every new blog entry to remind people to add said tag. I propose the following:

  • Flag the spammy CCCs (or CCs, since not all custom creation blog posts revolve around champions) and delete them. Any user should be able to flag a blog post so that it gets verified.
  • If possible, create a separate space for custom creations that does not interfere in any way with blog posts. This space would have to be especially clear and visible to new users, to avoid the current stream of half-baked champion templates. After that, either move all existing CCs to that space with the use of a bot, or delete all existing CC blog posts after a series of warnings, as NeonSpotlight suggested.

The thing is, even if you were to delete all current CCCs, that would not stop a lot of users (particularly newcomers) from coming up with their own. Moreover, despite the vast amount of spammy, low-quality posts, there are quite a few well-made concepts, and a community behind them that enjoys viewing and commenting on them. Moving CCs an CCCs to a new space within the wiki would prevent them from overwhelming other blog posts, and the flag mechanic would provide a better form of quality control.

P.S.: Not all GBPs are that conducive to good discussion either. A large portion of them are rants or opinion posts that don't ask for a response.--Willbachbakal (talk) 17:15, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

"spammy" is subjective. For example, compare psy's opinions are on what defines a blog post to... anyone else's. Also, some past discussions related to this topic: Forum:Wiki_Review_5#User-generated_content Forum:Disabling_blogsTehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 18:42, December 12, 2013 (UTC)
The consensus on both pages was that user-generated content should stay. Furthermore, the problem raised in both cases was that said content could be detracting from the mainspace, which is not the case here: the quality level of the mainspace has been going up, not down, particularly with the addition of ability detail templates and the cleaning up of champion pages. The other issue here is that banning custom creation posts wouldn't push the creators towards the mainspace, it'd just turn them away from the wiki. Granted, the situation as it stands isn't peachy, but banning a popular activity (which, despite its frequent lapses in quality, brings people regularly to the wiki) has never solved and will not solve the matter at hand, and may in fact make things worse. --Willbachbakal (talk) 04:29, December 13, 2013 (UTC)


This is wiki about League of Legends, not about 'League of Legends - the way I would do it'. Its great that people have ideas but wiki is hardly the place for them as wikis job is to represent facts about the game and additional information that the game is missing - at least that is how I see (any) wiki. The games own forums have dedicated sections for fan work and ideas where they can be represented and with a correct audience. I don't see any problem deleting them outright. They are not in the game and this wiki is about the game thus irrelevant and should be removed. BlackSmith (talk) 02:31, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

You are conflating the wiki mainspace and the blog section: the mainspace is for documentation, blogs are for the userbase to post on topics related to the game, which don't have to be factual. In the LoL Wiki's case, custom posts are prominent enough to overshadow other blog posts, which is where the problem arises. Were your line of argumentation to be followed, though, there would be no blogs at all, considering their content is "not in the game". --Willbachbakal (talk) 04:22, December 13, 2013 (UTC)


I don't dislike the idea of allowing blogs on this wiki, however custom champions on this wiki over last year has been resembling more and more like a cut-and-paste template with someone picking random numbers on their OC and visiting google images or the Dota wiki for icons. The fact we allow with no restrictions, custom champions on blogspace promotes lazy, low quality content. 20px-1445357.png LionsLight(talk) 03:52, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

There are certain restrictions (cut-and-paste templates aren't allowed, and custom champion posts need to be tagged as such), but the problem is that they're poorly communicated and frequently ignored or forgotten. Having a separate, dedicated section for these, with stricter and more visible rules to ensure quality control, would help a lot towards cleaning up the current mess. --Willbachbakal (talk) 04:22, December 13, 2013 (UTC)


While I wouldn't approve of completely forbidding Custom Champion Concepts, I think restricting them to a user's individual sandbox might be an acceptable alternative, if action is to be taken at all. And yes, I thinksome rules and restrictions should be enforced. --Dragonzzilla (talk) 02:45, December 13, 2013 (UTC)


I'm thinking nearly exactly what BlackSmith is thinking. Additionally, as I have said before, and maybe Will missed it, but the quality of blog posts can be easily monitored and deleted if it is not up to par.

Do note that this discussion is about banning CCCs from blog space, which not only makes my job easier, gives viewers less of an eyesore, frees up the extra slot for something else, and a lot of old personal images can be removed. If you want to Sandbox your champions, then show it to your friends later, feel free to do so. Mineko Charat Lucky (talk) 13:47, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

That's the thing, though: a lot of people who post these CCCs want the rest of the wiki to see them, so restricting the exposure they get would just lead to them circumventing the rules. I definitely agree that they shouldn't be on the blog space, since they don't fit there, but they need a separate space where people can still see them. I'm not entirely familiar with CSS, but wouldn't it be possible to create an additional section on the dashboard, and give users the option to enable/disable all posts related to that section? That way, people who don't want to face a daily barrage of custom creation posts wouldn't have to. The issue on quality control seems more bureaucratic than anything else: clearly, if there are no rules against poorly made CCCs, the appropriate restrictions should be added to delete the spam. Again, this would work better if CCCs were in a dedicated section of their own, with their own set of rules. Allowing users to flag terrible posts would also make your job easier. --Willbachbakal (talk) 17:01, December 13, 2013 (UTC)


I hate them. For all the reason's stated. I hate that they come up when I look for new blog entries. I don't think any of them are good and most of them are outright garbage. I'd even group custom reworks in this category. "Nidalee needs a rework these are my ideas." I don't care nor want to see what you think. (Royal "you")

However, I am against getting rid of them. For whatever reason there are a ton of them. and it brings traffic and activity to the Wikia. Activity is always good even if it is on something that is as much a waste of space as Custom Champion ideas. So I say keep them. My only request would be to change their page types so that they can't be confused with actual champions, nor are they grouped with blogs which may (or most likely may not) have a meaningful discussion on the current game. Asperon Thorn (talk) 21:45, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Visitor count should never be a factor in discussion as
  1. The wiki on its own is not-for-profit. We as editors should not be concerned about ad revenue we do not receive.
  2. Unless we can reliably translate that visitor count to editorship, all its doing is drawing visitors to a non-encyclopedic portion of the wiki.
  3. The merits of high viewership is not recognized as a measure of quality for articles. That is why wikis do not have view counts on pages.
On an unrelated note, this, except for the last point, also applies to comments. 20px-1445357.png LionsLight(talk) 01:42, December 16, 2013 (UTC)


General summary of opinions:
Support deletion: Teh, BlackSmith.
Support movement to other space: Neon, willbachbakal, Lions?, Dragonzzilla, AsperonThorn.
Oppose any change: None.
Teh Proposal: Ban custom champions from user blog namespace, then outsource custom champion concepts to this thing here. People who don't want custom champs featured prominently on the LoL wiki are happy, community that enjoys making them is happy and can moderate themselves. Opinion? — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 05:22, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

  • I personally think we should have custom content removed from this wiki. However, it's not always just custom champions, I have seen custom items and such. Here is an example of what all custom content should be moved to. All fan fiction can be put there instead of here, since we are here to provide game factual game content. I thought we should call it LoL Fan Fiction Wiki because all types of fan fiction can be made in one spot, rather than just custom champions. I agree that we can let them moderate themselves.  Technology Wizard  Talk  Contribs  20:51, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  • By "Support movement to other space", I'd like to specify that I'm in favor of moving custom creation blogs to another space within the wiki. Moving custom content anywhere outside this site is as bad as deleting all of it outright, as far as the LoL Wiki is concerned. --Willbachbakal (talk) 20:20, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Final Solution

Tell users that all LoL fan fiction is to be published at League of Legends Fan Fiction Wiki and give time for users to transfer their info there and then delete all the fan fiction content here.  Technology Wizard  Talk  Contribs  07:59, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

Support

  1. Support Support Technology Wizard  Talk  Contribs  07:59, December 26, 2013 (UTC)
  2. Support Support — Original characters based on League would fit the criteria for entries on that wiki. Very good idea. 20px-1445357.png LionsLight(talk) 08:03, December 26, 2013 (UTC)
  3. Support Support — I have never thought of making another wikia for custom content though, I'm perfectly fine with this decision. Mineko Charat Lucky (talk) 08:29, December 26, 2013 (UTC)
  4. Support Support — I support this, only because after almost a year, people continue to fill the blog space with custom champion concepts. I was hoping that the shift of all custom champion concepts to another location would reduce it and people would catch up, but how it's been going, it doesn't look like it will ever catch on. All it's doing now is just adding more work for mainly one specific person. Though I support this, I don't support it by a lot. I would rather keep custom champions a possibility as I know tons of people enjoy doing it, but there needs to enforce this on the users who creates these concepts without the need of mod to constantly move them. ClariS (talk) 02:07, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. Neutral Neutral — I wish to express the sentiment that LoL fan fiction is severely limited in comparison to the quantity of custom champions produced, and is misleading as to the content thereof (also, the fact that we two founded the lolcc and lolff wikias is a factor). If users choose one over the other, I would suggest an immediate discussion to elect two bureaucrats, with the founder either remaining active or stepping down. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 19:36, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Oppose Oppose —Splitting the userbase is not a good idea, especially as we have the tools on this wiki to better integrate custom content instead of rejecting it outright. I'd also like to point out that only a small number of people have posted on this forum thread, most of them sysops, indicating this discussion may not even be visible enough to attract the attention of those concerned in the first place. --Willbachbakal (talk) 20:11, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
  2. oppose - Everything can be kept here, and I'd like it to be. We should be trying to develop a community, no split it and send people elsewhere. Ajraddatz (Talk) 20:13, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Comments


  • @Will it's usually only superusers that post, because they're generally the people with the most motivation to care about things/change them. That said, I believe this thread has more non-sysops than most other wiki issues.
    @AJ Developing a community, may be one of your personal goals for the wiki, but that shouldn't be a true goal. Forming communities is a recommended wikia goal, but imo a community grows organically. In this case, the custom champion community has indeed grown into a sapling, that has matured and developed its own characteristics, and can be transplanted to other grounds. On this wiki, though, the custom champion area forms its own group. The LoL wiki has a tiny group of core editors, a decent-sized chat community, a comment base, and a large decentralized custom champion community that is largely removed from editing and the larger community.
    Both of you voice concerns about "splitting the userbase", but the userbases are already split, and have been for a long time. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 21:31, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with both of these points. Out of the ten (!) people to have posted here, half of them are sysops, and of all the regular users I'm the only one to have made more than one post. A 1-to-1 distribution may sound nice, but considering there are dozens, if not hundreds of users for every admin or moderator on this wiki, this is hugely disproportionnate. The fact that there are so few people posting on this thread (the average news or opinion blog typically gets about three times this many users within the first day) just doesn't fit with the wiki-changing importance the topic has.
Moreover, the custom champion community has grown organically -- on this wiki. Forcing it out and putting it in another space is the very opposite of organic. The custom champion community is also far less isolated than you think, if the comments section on the mainspace is to be trusted. People focused on custom creations do roam the mainspace, and most do actually make edits there. I consider myself to be heavily focused on custom content, and I've still made several edits to champion pages, and have even contributed to the Ability Details project. You're making an inaccurate, divisive and fairly insulting generalization by assuming that custom content creators don't contribute to the rest of the wiki as well. --Willbachbakal (talk) 21:49, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
Hmmhmmmhmm.
"Out of the ten (!) people to have posted here, half of them are sysops"
people who have posted on this page, with sysops bolded: Mineko, Teh, Neon, Will, BlackSmith, LionsLight, Dragonzzilla, Asperon Thorn, ajr, tech. That's 3/9 4/10 sysops/total editors.
Comparing to the other recently active wiki issues thread (within the last few months) Forum:Removing_move-rights_from_Editors_and_Anons, that one has Demise, ajr, neon, lions, teh, tech (5/6 sysops/total editors). I remain justified in my statement that "this thread has more non-sysops than most other wiki issues."
"of all the regular users I'm the only one to have made more than one post... The fact that there are so few people posting on this thread... doesn't fit with the wiki-changing importance the topic has"
Yes, and this only supports what I said before: "superusers [are] generally the people with the most motivation to care about things/change them". Sure, it'd be nice to have input from more people like you, but the majority of people are casual visitors, or only come here to make a custom champion. This supports my point, that "such users are not active editors nor do they consider themselves part of the community". They are the people who see "community messages have been updated" and immediately X-out without looking further. By doing so, they relinquish their right to be involved in making decisions, for they were given the same opportunities as you.
"People focused on custom creations do roam the mainspace"
Wikia has a handy tool, Special:Editcount, which gives you stats on an individual's edits within each namespace. I do not want to make this personal in any way or make any opinions, but merely introduce it as a methods of displaying an user's activity in different areas. I believe that people involved in custom champions are quality individuals, but wish to use numbers to qualify my statement that the "custom champion community...is largely removed from editing and the larger community"
Mineko: 237 mainspace edits, 543 mainspace talk, 1120 userblog namespace, 1252 user blog comment namespace
Dragonzzilla: 13 mainspace edits, 7 mainspace talk, 58 userblog namespace, 97 userblog namespace comment
Will: 57 mainspace edits, 160 mainspace talk, 352 userblog namespace, 666 userblog comment namespace
Grrrbear26 (a guy featured in the custom champions box on the homepage): 0 mainspace edits, 18 mainspace talk, 235 userblog namespace, 472 userblog comment namespace
In comparison, myself, Teh: 6221 mainspace edits, 2078 mainspace talk, 1087 userblog namespace, 316 userblog comment namespace (noting that most of those last three numbers came from moderation, as do much of Mineko's)
I do not claim that content-creators do not contribute at all, but that these numbers justify my statement that custom champion creators are "largely removed from editing", and generally reside within their own community.
"You're making an inaccurate, divisive and fairly insulting generalization"
I have attempted to respond to the inaccuracy claim as best as I can. If it is not to your satisfaction, please say so. Your involvement is the outlier, the 99th percentile of involvement level, as opposed to the average. Divisive, I can not answer. I believe that I speak truthfully, with my own opinions. Accusing another of divisive and insulting speech is itself divisive, might I add. If you have any further reasonable concerns, it is my responsibility to respond to them as best I can. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 22:45, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
Mineko is a moderator and you omitted Tech. That makes 5/10. The fact that just ten users is an outstanding number for a forum thread is simply testament to how poorly visible the forum is. The regular users who came onto this thread did so when it popped up on the activity feed, which not only underlines how far removed it is from the actual community, but proves that there are potentially far more people who would be interested in this discussion. Furthermore, while there are users who may not contribute to the mainspace, neither do they represent the majority nor should the rest be penalized for the former's lack of participation. A community that is "far-removed" still participates to some extent in the main group's activities, and moving this community away would therefore incur a loss in the wiki's activity (which, no matter how small, is bad).
As a matter of fact, this entire argument is framed completely wrong: who says we need to ship out these users if we want them to have their own community? On this wiki, we have the tools to create a space for custom creations that wouldn't bother the rest of the editors. Evicting a large portion of the wiki's userbase to an underdeveloped, crappily-formatted other wiki space sounds like a cop-out.
While my statement may have been divisive, it is only because this discussion has been framed from the start as an "us versus them" argument. Aside from myself, the central actors to this discussion have all been sysops, with the only one connected to custom creations also being the one overburdened with the deletion of sub-par posts. You have made your decision largely by yourselves, and have made little effort to reach out to other users, even though this decision will massively affect both the wiki and its editors. As moderators and administrators, moving the troublesome portion of the wiki somewhere else may make your job easier, but to many more people it would have a significant negative impact. My concern is that this thread isn't reaching anywhere near the amount of people it needs to be relevant, and that the discussion has been framed in such a way that it does not favor any form of compromise between the administrators and the people whom this thread concerns. --Willbachbakal (talk) 23:31, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
"Mineko is a moderator"
But not a sysop. Your original complaint was directed against sysops, and moderators do not possess full administrative tools.
"and you omitted Tech. That makes 5/10."
My mistake. 4/10.
"The fact that just ten users is an outstanding number for a forum thread is simply testament to how poorly visible the forum is."
Does visibility improve a discussion's quality? I think not. When the wiki tested out Message Wall, the features allowed admins to highlight discussions. This did in fact increase the number of participants in Requests for Permissions, and in discussions regarding wiki issues, but the people who came mostly just "kudos"-ed the vote they supported, or had a very limited scope of what was going on. (eg. someone with 2 edits voting on a Request for Moderator or similar) Sadly, none of these threads were archived when we disabled Message Wall, but the reduced quality of discussions was definitely related to the increased visibility thereof.
Furthermore, while there are users who may not contribute to the mainspace, neither do they represent the majority nor should the rest be penalized for the former's lack of participation.
Do you see colonization as a punishment? (maybe if you're aussie, I guess...)
"On this wiki, we have the tools to create a space for custom creations that wouldn't bother the rest of the editors."
Myself, I do not believe that this fits into the wiki's goal to create a site containing League of Legends knowledge. It is a social aspect with its own community, and deserves its own distinct and independent space.
"Evicting a large portion of the wiki's userbase to an underdeveloped, crappily-formatted other wiki space sounds like a cop-out."
Ah, but this is a new world. It would be a period of new beginnings, where users can create their own community, their own infrastructure, their own wiki, with their own admins and leaders.
"large portion of the wiki's userbase": There is a problem if a large portion of the userbase on a wiki is involved solely with one aspect and that alone.
"crappily-formatted", you say? I believe that was one of the original complaints from Mineko. It is crappy here, and things will sometimes be crappy, regardless of the location. It is the job of admins and editors to maintain quality, to create a great wiki.
"may make your job easier, but to many more people it would have a significant negative impact"
This, imo, is one of the primary points that we have debated on at the wiki. Is the wiki's purpose to provide information, or to please the people? I maintain the first, and know that aj for one holds with the latter. I am not convinced that pleasing the greatest number of users, or boosting traffic and social activity as measured by wikia central's metrics makes the wiki better. To the contrary, I believe that such policies detract from the real business of wikis: providing information and editing.
"You have made your decision largely by yourselves, and have made little effort to reach out to other users, even though this decision will massively affect both the wiki and its editors."
Forgive us if this seems archaic, but this is how it's always been done. Discussions are announced via the community corner, perhaps linked to in chat. Supposing that this does raise the threshold to participate in a discussion, is that a bad thing? It means that only involved users, such as superusers or active editors as yourself participate. Would you want Joe Schmoe, designer of custom champion Joe the Plumber, here to debate over what direction the wiki should take and its relation to the wiki's principles, goals, and values? As for the last bit, I am as yet unconvinced that this decision will "massively affect both the wiki and its editors", because I do not see how it is an important part of the wiki/editor community.
"My concern is that this thread isn't reaching anywhere near the amount of people it needs to be relevant"
Who better to determine the path but users who were voted upon and entrusted to make these kind of decisions by other users, with the input of concerned and involved individuals? It seems to me that the thread reached its target audience quite well.
"the discussion has been framed in such a way that it does not favor any form of compromise between the administrators and the people whom this thread concerns"
If you would elucidate this point further...?
TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 20:32, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, visibility does increase a discussion's quality, by dint of allowing better plurality of opinion and letting more people raise valid issues. That you do not wish to make your decisions more visible to the rest of this wiki's community, in spite of the importance of said decision, smacks of elitism, along with your poor opinion of at least a good portion of the user base (Joe Schmoe? Stay classy, Teh). For all your banter, you cannot hide the fact that you simply wish to get rid of the users you don't want: you think the LoL Wiki is crappily formatted? LoLCC Wiki doesn't even have a proper background. Its only page is the front page. This isn't "colonization", this is deportation.
"Who better to determine the path but users who were voted upon and entrusted to make these kind (sic) of decisions by other users, with the input of concerned and involved individuals?" How about, oh, I don't know, the users?. The concerned individuals in this discussion include every user who has made a custom creation post, yet you clearly don't regard their input as valuable. Worse even, you seem to think that your function as admin allows you to make decisions for the editors regardless of what they think, whereas you're supposed to be representing them. As an administrator on the BioShock Wiki for the past two years, I have made decisions that were not always immediately popular, but never have I done anything to screw over my users, and never have I exercised my authority to supersede their input outright.
Let's talk a bit more about that, actually. Over the course of those two years, and the one before as a regular editor, I've had to deal with massive edit floods on the mainspace. In fact, I was the only active admin when BioShock Infinite hit the shelves. On top of that, there have been vandalism sprees, and sub-par fanfiction blog posts that would put this wiki's copy-paste templates to shame. At each of these points, there have always been knee-jerk reactions just like this one: should we permaban editors for minor offenses? Should we give users a vandalism warning if they badly mess up the Rich Text format on an article, even if it could be construed as a simple mistake? Should we ban blogs (and not just fanfiction) altogether for the sake of preserving the wiki's purpose as a database? None of these ideas went through, and the best part is: the wiki's doing just fine. Editors constantly improve and add to the mainspace, vandals are kept under control, and we even have a healthy fanfiction community that regularly contributes to mainspace articles.
My point being: you're trying to take the easy way out, using spectacularly lazy rhetoric: if the custom creation community here doesn't contribute to the mainspace, how would kicking them out improve the mainspace's quality in any way? Unless they're consistently degrading the quality of mainspace articles, that argument makes no sense. You claim to be preserving the wiki's goal of being a database, but how would excising the users whose contribution you assume to be zero make it any more of a database? Would the articles become more informative? Would more people suddenly come to edit? You've created a false dichotomy in assuming that you can't have a happy community and keep the wiki informative at the same time. I know from experience that it's possible, you just don't seem to want to make an effort. Instead of fixing the problem, you just want it to go away. That is the problem with this discussion, and it's not just with you: you see CCC editors as inherently worthless and want to get rid of them, and with that bias you refuse to so much as try to integrate them into the wiki. Want to improve the LoL wiki and make everyone happy? Get their attention! Encourage them to contribute more to the mainspace! Get them a dedicated space within this wiki that allows them to show their creations without pissing you off! People have pulled off crazier things on CSS, so we might as well try before we flush out the undesirables.
P.S. Moderators count as sysops too. Don't believe me? Here you go. 5/10. :P --Willbachbakal (talk) 23:20, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I'm on Teh's side.

Your argument is that custom champions increase traffic, so here I ask you - how much? My initial statement is that custom champions do not provide much of a traffic and most people do not bother reading custom champions, this is apparent when you look at the total number of comments, there is not a day where the comments of custom champions are more than one-third of blog comments. Personally I'm with Teh on this one, the goal of Wikia is to provide rock hard information. Don't get me wrong though, I merely brought up the argument of "traffic" since we're talking about it.

Here's the thing, custom champions are inefficient for increasing traffic. Sure, they do add traffic, but by how much? Why would a race car driver buy an overpriced yet subpar car for his racing career? Not only are custom champions not adding a lot of traffic, they are also very tiresome to manage.

P.S. If custom champions are to be kept, stop making horrible, horrible concepts that I have to stare and facepalm at what I read and start write decently thought out kits and categorize them properly.

P.P.S. Why are you using outside-of-Wikia terminology of the word "sysop" into Wikia?

P.P.P.S. Teh, give me Sysop right now because Mod no different from Sysop. Mineko Charat Lucky (talk) 01:24, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

moderator is a unique user rights position on this wiki. I believe it was instituted by Nysty? as a mid-point between editor/rollback editor and full sysop. At best it's a sysop-in-training position. (recent example of moderator vs sysop: Emptylord accidentally deleted his blog, because mod has delete privileges, but he couldn't undelete it because that's a sysop priv). — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 17:01, January 4, 2014 (UTC)


Hi guys, just like to tell you guys that you're now tangenting off into a discussion about semantics. For now, let's try to stick with the topic at hand; The proposition of moving custom content to another wiki: for or against? ~ Demise101 @ Talk! @ Contribs! ~ 01:47, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Semantics aside, the argument "Wikia is meant to be purely a database, so we should kick the rest out" holds no water. You cannot maintain at the same time that custom content creators generate no traffic on the wiki and that moving them away would make the LoL Wiki more informative. I elaborated on this above, but the biggest part of it is that there is at best positive contribution flow from CCC-space to mainspace (even if it's not that much), and at worst zero contribution flow (i.e. they're two different spheres that don't interact with each other at all). In the second case, moving custom creations to another wiki would generate no positive outcome for the mainspace, as there would still be zero interaction. In the first, though, turning away custom content creators affects the mainspace negatively, no matter how small the amount. There is no logical way you can hope for the LoL Wiki to become a better database by getting rid of a portion of its userbase. On the other hand, CCCs generate zero to positive traffic on the wiki, for precisely the same reasons, which is why it would be a better idea to reach out to the community and try to bridge the gap between it and the mainspace articles instead of directing them to the internet equivalent of a landfill. That's why I oppose moving custom content out of the wiki, and why I'd much rather prefer the creation of a space within the Lol Wiki to accomodate it.
On a more personal level, you seem overwhelmed by the amount of crap blogs you need to deal with, Mineko. If you feel like it's becoming too much, or if you're tired of the chore it represents, you should ask for help from others on the wiki. You don't need to be the only one to deal with the flow of user concepts. --Willbachbakal (talk) 02:15, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with Demise on the point of debating semantics being tangential. In this case, Will refers to "wikia". I have, in each case, specifically referred to the singular LoL Wiki, because I do not support wikia's style of thinking: more social interactions and "community involvement" (ex. Message Wall implementation, JAlbor's job to develop community via polls and blogs and such) to boost traffic. To the point of custom champion editors also editing on mainspace, I am of the opinion that CC distract editors and the overall editing community from mainspace, where there are far more users in one section than the other, far more users who care about decisions about one section vs the other (many more unique repliers when a decision affects blogspace, as opposed to mainspace). Thirdly, when you refer to traffic again, I believe that this is a conflict of fundamental wiki principles. To me, traffic is a statistic used by wikia overlords that they can convert into money. For others, such as yourself, you feel that increasing traffic is a goal/target. As an unpaid volunteer/admin, I see not a cent of the wiki's ad revenue, though I imagine wikia makes a decent buck. I believe the primary goal of the wiki should be to be the best source of LoL information available on the internets, as opposed to the most popular. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 17:01, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
So basically, the crux of your argument is that custom creations distract people from the mainspace. Aside from the distinct possibility that moving CCs to another site would cause even more people to abandon the mainspace in favor of the new one, do you have any form of proof or evidence that any siginificant amount of editors is being legitimately pulled away from editing on the mainspace by custom champion articles? This is a big decision, and it would be best not to mess things up on a gut feeling. --Willbachbakal (talk) 22:23, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
I do not claim it to be a fact, and therefore have nothing to prove. I merely express my opinions and hope that they are acknowledged and considered. — TehAnonymous Avatar TehAnonymous <3 01:07, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
So, what you're saying is, there is no solid foundation for throwing out custom content creators aside from your opinion? In that case, why not value the opinions of the people you're turning away? If anything, their opinions count more than yours, as it's their work you're messing with. --Willbachbakal (talk) 01:32, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

If fanmade concepts are really that big of an problem just create an fannon version of the wikia. Their's your solution. Btw I believe the user has right to have their own personal blog and who are you to say it's not allowed. An wikia is free to edite and it would even be against the offical wikia policy to remove these blogs without providing an alternative. --Jens Ingels (talk) 22:51, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

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