Board Thread:Wiki discussions and announcements/@comment-4881935-20150119071038

To anyone who reads this, please do not answer these questions on this board. Once the forum is set up, answer there in which your answers and reasoning can be organized cleanly.

-- Hello lovely reader. A long time ago, I started my foot in the wrong place, and so this time again, I'm gonna try to do this in a more positive light. Yes, it cost efficiency again!!!

A guideline needs to be created for this section of cost efficiency that exist in the item pages, because, let us not ignore this major tidbit in the current usage, 'cost efficiency section is 100% theory-crafting. This is a problem within wiki because the wiki is supposed to be about providing 'facts' and not theorizing information while presenting it as facts.

And before people start arguing on the claim that cost efficiency is not 'theorizing', you should take note on some large assumptions that are made:


 * There was a baseline that the 'community' designated themselves as to be used as the stander.
 * The baseline or base item that was chosen was not picked because they they were RIGHT or WRONG. They were picked based on preference and usefulness. Attempting to justify what is the RIGHT way is pointless as anyone can have their own preference on how they would rather do it, and it would work equally as well.
 * In choosing the baseline, it is 'assumed' the item is 100% cost efficient.
 * There is a reason why this is normally done since they creates a point of reference that anyone can see with their eyes. But the issue with this is that there is no fact that it is correct. It is what the 'community' just picked to be the stander. But two major road blocks hits this assumptions as:
 * 1) Upper tier items have clear evidence to have increase 'cost efficiency' over basic tier items, thereby affecting spell vamp, % movement speed, armor penetration, life steal, and anything else I forgot.
 * 2) AD and AP has basic tier items that provide different 'gold value'. What makes choosing the more cheaper item more 'correct' then the more expensive one? In fact, why can't use all 3 of them in cost efficiency instead of the 1? Can the wiki possibly justify this method other than, we wanted it that way?


 * Ignoring build path and unique tag.
 * I just wanted to point these out because it is something that is always ignored, and not many people ever seem to point it out.
 * The items needs to be brought
 * I read this a few times, but I do want to point out, we do sort of ignore this with the transformation items. The final version items technically can't be brought from the store, requiring to be transformed. This has grounds to point out difference that is commonly ignored for reasons that aren't generally justified except for 'people' wanting it and showing inconsistency within rules.

NOTE: Those assumptions above aren't proof to claim 'cost efficiency' needs to be removed, but rather why we can't claim the 'stats' value is worth Xg as a fact. And as a reminder, the wikia's main task is providing facts and not theorizing. And we shouldn't be presenting theories as facts.

So the questions is, what does the cost efficiency exactly mean? What are the exact details that holds the foundation of cost efficiency/statistic value/gold value? This is not about general thoughts, but getting into the fine details of the section.

And before I get to the main point, I also want to point out an awesome blog that will help set the mood of this: The Fallacies of Item Efficiency

--- So you fine people who have any interest in cost efficiency, gold value, statistic value. Let's build a guideline for this, and craft exactly what cost efficiency is supposed to mean and move it away from the realm of random theroycrafting and into the realm of actual information.

Now, anyone who knows about me in the past few years knows about my stance about the current usage, but I lay down this proposal, if there are logical reasoning within a constructed foundation, I will stop my crusade of attempting to remove what I believe is false information.

So here are a few list of questions that I want to lay down and I hope someone answers with logical reasoning. Explanation and reasoning is what is important here. Not just a 1 line sentence. And therefore, we can create a solid guideline for future people can use.

1) All of question 1 is set to help create a foundation and base of cost efficiency. How do we find the statistical/gold value that is used throughout the section? What exactly does this value mean and represent? What defines this value?

1.25) What exactly does the stat's value represent (because this is something that really needs to be clear)? What does it mean?

1.5) Considering all variables, such as: Unique tags, build path, active & passive effects, special triggers, does if the item needs to be brought from the shop. What variables do we keep? what variables do we ignore? Why?

1.75) Can we use gold/statistical value for this different if the situation ever presented themselves in the future and was useful? What implication does this mean? (I want people to actually think about this. This is completely theroycrafting, but if the information is to be considered fact, then we should be able to come up to logical reasoning on why).

2) What is the purpose of the cost efficiency section (exact details please)? What do believe it encompasses and how does it explain it with the information it provides?

2.5) Does the foundation and base of how statistical value justify and provide adequate answers while making clear what it is ignoring?

3) What is a stat to you? What exactly separate a stat from an effect (For example, what makes Attack damage different from on-hit damage, or how health is different from shield value)? Or how you in the camp that stat and an effect is the same? Do you care to explain yourself?

3.5) What does classification mean to you? How do you think we should classify stats different from effects? Do you think classification and how we classify things matters?

-- Okay, those are all the questions I can think of creating a foundation. And now, here are just some theorizing hat I hope you lovely reader can answer with using your foundation you created above.

1) Let us pretend that had to be purchased from the store for 600 gold  instead of being of just having it for free. Do you believe it is right/wrong to value '+1 AP per level' as 200g and use it within the cost efficiency section? What reasons do you believe so? Why?

1.25) Follow up question, if you agree with value it at 600g, do you also agree that it is right to value it as 'for every 1 AP it grants, it is wroth an additional 21.75g'.' Why?

1.5) Follow up question, if you agree with both possible value, how do you defend having multiple possible answers, but at the same time have 1 that is static and another that is a changing value? Both cannot be facts representing the same information. What does 1 mean and what does the other mean?

2) Let us pretend there was a basic item that granted:
 * Unique Passive - Lifeline: Upon taking magic damage that would reduce health below 30%, grants a shield that absorbs 100 magic damage for 5 seconds (90 second cooldown).

If it costed 400g, we could give this effect a ‘statistical value’ of 400g. Would be valid and possible to compare with other items that met all but for how much damage it absorbed. Why yes or no?

2.5) Do you think it is possible to value any passive and active effect, if the situation was given in which the community could do somewhat agree?

3) Could we use the basic foundation of 'cost efficiency' to value runes? Except, replace gold value with IP currency. Would it work? Is there a reason why it can't work?

3.5) If you say that it can work, how would you value the 3 seals (yellow runes):
 * flat health
 * health per level
 * % health

3.75) Why don't you think the wikia or the community don't use cost efficiency for runes and all it's tier items?

- And lastly for all those who oppose the cost efficiency section and want it's outright removal. I ask you guys to post bullet points on the specific details on why it shouldn't exist? Please do not rant but every piece of information can be useful, because for those who support the section, I ask, please, instead of arguing their points, instead, take the mindset that maybe they are right and what can we do as a community to correct that issue? 