Talk:Lee Sin/@comment-8506165-20140118220449/@comment-15244341-20140119212456

Sorry. Lee has higher damage than Talon. Really? 15% is not enough to matter? 200+260+440+400% bonus AD not counting the autoattacks that are amped by his passive and a part of his combo so at least 110% more AD which amounts to unavoidable 1035+460% Bonus AD and 126% AD. Plus silence, that shuts down more champions than attack speed slows do. Also, notice how Talon's burts executes faster and he can do it over creeps/the frontline and he can use it all without fear of saving the other guy. Because this is my biggest grip with assassin Lee: you either know exactly when the kick kills the other guy or you might as well never use it. Plus notice that if you miss or someone evades/blocks Q, you are mostly screwed because bye bye damage. By the way, Talon also gets Hydra. Which gets amped too. Lee curbstomps when going damage if he gets ahead which he is better tan Talon at. This is where the distintion lies, in my opinion. Talon top has trouble. Talon mid has trouble. Talon jungle... ugh. Lee can do those things fairly better and as such he is better as an assassin by virtue of him being easier to snowball with.

Plus 200 health shield with Runes+Masteries+GA setup means the shield is terrible. Also ask Talon players if they would like a reliable escape. Like, you know, the one which the guy who is considered the strongest assassin in the game has, Kassadin. The answer may surprise you. I'm not saying everyone gets Riftwalk (god forbid), but Talon has trouble escaping when someone remebers to get a pink ward.

You can't say "no defensive steroids, yeah" and move on. This is crucial. Steroids make or break tanks. Sejuani used to be wrecked (Mundo levels) on her first clear before the rework. Now she has a bit of armor from her passive and the difference shows. A lot. Late game, Vi's shield is amazing, so is Nautillus' and mean you can bear much more punishment than a champion with just some tank items.

His CC is the strongest AoE attack speed slow? Cool. Anyone can (and will) buy Randuin's Omen or FH which essentially does this. Plus it wears down during the duration, unlike Wither which is FAR stronger. Also, there are really few champions outside of ADCs that rely on attack speed compared to spells so while really good, it matters only if you can get it to the backline, which is what makes Wither great: you disrupt the enemy and invalidate the one target which Wither really hurts.

Kicking is situational lategame. If you get to kick something that is not the tank or bruiser it's not by merit of Lee but a matter of poor ward coverage or positioning. And pulling tanks to your team is a grand experience for the other team. For anyone that plays Blitzcrank this should sound familiar. Yes, you CAN initiate. But for an Insec kick to be effective you need to... you know, not die. Which Q-Q2-W-R most likely means you will.

Also, don't overestimate Lee's capabilities. He does not outduel every single champion in the jungle. Nor outfarms. Nor outganks. Lee needs to hit Q too for a gank to succeed, you know? And Naut gets to slow from further away to catch up, flash+auto, flash+E... He does not outduel Xin. I play Xin and this is speaking from experience: the only champion that can possibly outduel a level 3 doublebuff Xin is Tiger Udyr. Same with Elise with smart usage of the stun. Again, from personal experience. Maybe they were bad players? Maybe. But they did hit their skills and autoattacked using passive and all that stuff. And Lee is really easy to play, so yeah.

Please, understand I'm not saying Lee is not really strong. He is. A lot. However, he is not some ungodly autowin pick by any strech of imagination. He has the role of a generalist. His damage falls off unless he gets a lot of items. Ever played Mundo? Tank Elise with offensive runes and masteries plus Sorc shoes? Darius? Maokai? This guys laugh at Lee's bases because the tanky damage route is not "okay burst with bases, a bit of % health".

And yes. One single target displacement on a +10 second cooldown plus an attack speed and movement slow is mediocre CC. No one will say Xin has great CC, when he has a knockup, a slow and his ult. Good CC is Nautilus, Sejuani, Amummu, Maokai or Vi.

Also notice how your high CC teamcomp requires Orianna to make Lee's initiation good. Let me tell you: Vi does that, from further away, and she gets an actual tank steroid and better CC/engage. So there, a reason to pick her over Lee.

I'll now leave this discussion. I don't think I'm getting mi points clearly to you or we have vastly different experiences playing with or against Lee Sin. I do believe he needs some number tweaking but I don't find him anything more than annoying to deal with compared to such other champions as Teemo or, as I said, Kass.