Talk:Kayle/@comment-68.109.110.108-20121130075716/@comment-68.109.110.108-20121202105722

Jesus, 2 days and so many posts... Only polite to reply to all of them -.- I'll add a note at the beginning, because people might not want to read so much. I play a ton of kayle, far more than I play teemo. She was my most played in ranked s2, and I largely had wins. I'm only saying that for a very specific role, AP/On-hit top vs. Autoattack dependent champions, teemo is a better choice. Honestly people, I gave Kayle 4 roles she's better at (jungle, supp, ADC, top vs. casters). Must Kayle be the bets at everything? The replies are in order, so skip some if you want.

1: Yes, Kayle's ult is generally very strong, however Teemo's is not without merit, slows cut off escape paths, give unmatched map vision and are somewhat useful in teamfights (put one in front of you, laugh as you kite bruisers who try to run to you).

2: You're joking I assume, teemo's AA do about as much damage as kayle's on-hit (10 less at all ranks), apply a powerful dot, and is always active. His Q is makes AA champions completely unable to trade with him and his W pisses off melees all day. Teemo is a potent threat in lane, any top player will admit that, especially if they main autoattackers.

3: Teemo doesn't need to build CDR, as Malasy, hurricane and deathcap are all superior damage items compared to nashor's tooth. That said, Teemo can scale quite well with CDR. Grap that tooth, then blind their ADC. 2.5 seconds up? Exhaust them. 3.5 seconds up? Well your Q has an 8 second cooldown, so with that tooth, you can now Q again, another 2.5 seconds blinded. Can kayle shut down a fed vayne's damage for 7.5 seconds? Or shrooms, every bush, shroomed. Every Buff, shroomed, every key ward spot, shroomed. Teemo doesn't need it, but he does very well with his shrooms. I don't even need to mention the fact teemo scales even better with AP that kayle, his ratios do that job for me.

4: Her range is 25 longer, excuse me for ignoring to. I think that's more than mitigated by the fact she has to pay mana and has a cooldown on it. If 25 mattered nobody would play graves, but it really isn't important.

How do I ignore the AoE on her E? I said "Her E is AoE, giving her a huge benefit to pushing and teamfights. However, now in s3 teemo has hurricane, making his AA effectively AoE too." So teemo has AoE push too, it's not a kayle exclusive thing. That's why I downplayed it.

I didn't pretend her ult is terrible, I just said teemo's has its own merits, and if you're already building AP, I think teemo's is situationally better, or at least similarly good.

The MR shred IS negligable, as it's 3% per hit. Who lets kayle wail on them for that long to get it to it's max, still a mere 15%? It's not that great.

Explain to me how a 300 diameter AoE splash is such a great boon, while hurricane has a 300 RADIUS (effectively twice as big) and doesn't solve AoE problems. Realistically, hitting three people at once is as much as you can hope for in any kind of fight (barring some kind of godly orianna ult, but that fight is likely won anyway). Kill all the melees in two-three hits, kill all the casters in two hits, I can't see how teemo will have any AoE problems at all, and in most situations, should clear waves as quickly as kayle.

5: Sustain is an issue, but realistically, Kayle is mana hungry enough that if she's healing herself for anything other than a speed buff she's already lost lane. Also, itemizing for sustain on on-hits is easier with Blade of the Ruined King, aka, "Riot knows on-hit builds exists and gives them their blessing". It's a better item on teemo than kayle because if he has hurricane, he can potentially heal from three hits. Kayle can also get hurricane, but because her E doesn't apply on it, it's a sub-optimal item.

6: Your first point is largly inaccurate, Blind will negate all autoattack based damage including on-hit. Only ability damage which is triggered by autoattacks will still work. These include: Kayle's E, Cho's E, Kass's W and a number of "on-next hit effects" like kennen's E. Things like mf's impure shots will not deal their magic damage through blind.

You're biased on their movespeed abilities. Teemo's is passively active, and on activation works for 3 seconds. Now that obviously won't save you. Now Kayle's has no passive and on activation gives you a significantly weaker MS buff (teemo's is 52% for reference, and 26% passively. Also, Teemo's passive is automatically back up when the active runs out, even if he was hit 1 second before) and a weak heal (the heal can't help you if you're getting jumped, at most it's around 350ish  even on AP kayle because it has shit scaling.

About their E's, your argument seems to be largly "Teemo's E does more damage, so your enemy is likely to back". Are you for real? You can always attack less, if kayle's E somehow lets her take advantage of bad players who don't respect her damage output, I don't consider that a major advantage. As for the AoE, lack of wave shove is sometimes an issue early (late hurricane does help), but often kayle's AoE causes more issues that it helps. Use that same example, you're against a tanky, CC machine who will rape you in melee. You can farm at range with E, but as kayle this pushes lane, and lets them farm at tower. Now you can't go for cs without extending and getting ganked, and you can't put pressure on the enemy for the same reason and because their tower protects them. Also, no good player would ever fight in an enemy minion wave, this is common knowledge.

You say that like a forced disengage is a bad thing. You poke at a range, when they take a few shots to get in melee (or blow a gapcloser) you blind them. Now they either "trade with you when they can't land anything at you) like an idiot, or run away, so you get free shots on their back. You just hit them 4 times, they hit you 0. In top lane terminology, that's known as "getting fucked up".

Teemo's ult can be placed right in front of him in a teamfight for instance. A bruiser will dash to teemo and be slowed and damaged. If teemo uses his shrooms in melee range, you can't "walk around that shit", you either don't get in melee of him, or take it like a man. Teemo is fine with either. Also, a good advantage to teemo shrooms in lane other than being ungankable is total bush control. I think I mentioned this in my OP, but melees use bushes to counter melees, and that doesn't work on teemo at all. Also, if you get engaged upon, run into the bushes, you either get away without a scratch, or they follow you into mushroom hell ad likely die.

Teemo does a lot of that. The one thing kayle has over teemo in terms of lane harass is a slow, and to be honest, teemo's stronger speed buff and passive speed buff (same skill) really do the same thing, namely, let you kite/chase the enemy. Like I said, teemo owns the bushes, and he CAN chase people with his speed buff. So to answer your rhetorical question, yes, teemo can do that.

Teemo's issues with only focusing down one champion have been alleviated with hurricane, which I consider to be core on him. Also, having set build paths isn't that bad. Vlad is only viable as an AP AoE mage, but he's plenty strong.

Finally, yes, I agree, 100%. Kayle plays better against a wider range of champions than teemo. Teemo is, first and foremost, a counterpick. I don't consider this an issue, as top in a lane based on counterpicks. If the enemy hasn't chosen their top yet, don't pick teemo. He is situational, my point was only in the particular situation I pointed out (Ap/on-hit top lane against an AD autoattacking champion) teemo is better. I then pointed out other situations Kayle is better in. I think people might be overreacting.