Talk:Zilean/@comment-24023648-20150511082713/@comment-25970203-20150612192439

My problem with your ult rework is that you are saying Zileans abusable ult is terrible and needs more power. Look at his kit. Objectively the part that needs immediate fixing is his passive not his ult. His passsive is the only very uselss skill in his kit. That said, you've decided to fix a weak champion by giving them a more powerful ult that can go either way. Could be more powerful or less.

the constraints on your ult, in my opinion, cant be properly balanced in a way that gives both play and counterplay without some sort of abusable aspect. As far as i know this is almost impossible unless you give it some sort of criteria where the person playing the champion has to be very skilled as opposed to the enemies playing against it being dumb. Like Sion ulti. With sion ulti its hard to hit unless you are close by (smart use) or can control it very finely (skill use). Inherently it is moderately easy for anyone to dodge or for the user to screw up.

From what you are creating I see two very simple abuse cases that could make the game more problematic. 1st use on very safe champions that are hard to get to in the first place Ashe ult, second use on champions that inherently are hard to kill tank/immortal ults. The second case is what you are trying to get rid of and to an extent it makes sense. you're fix on the immortal issue is limit its duration. Fair enough. The tank issue however is where things can start going really poorly. Lets take your tank scenario.

Currently if you focus a tank you are generally doing something unadvisable and if nothing else reactive. Ideally you want to use your tanks to jump on their squishies not the other way around. When the Zilean ulti is abused this is because the enemy team forced you to make the decision to focus the tank and you did not make the decision to focus the squishies in the teamfight. this is because they were proactive and you are now acting reactively.

Your new ulti in the same situation, assuming the tank dies, gets rid of this. However, if the tank does not die it effectively works like the current ulti except with giving a champion back all their spells. Ill ignore the fact that if GA is used in conjunction with your ulti it will make the enemy team have to sit through the reaction of both happening and say that you will make it so that the person loses the effect. This does not change the fact that now the concept of "dont attack the tank" still stands. the only way they die in the new abuse case is if the tank gets so out of position they would die anyway which defeats the purpose of changing things. where im going with this is that with zilean's ult being reactive by its current nature, if your tank is so out of position that they can be killed, zilean probably cant ult them without getting killed him self during that revive period and the team can just run past the tank murder a few squishies and deal with reviing tank once their back up. Your new ulti as i see it just says "you cant attack me because im a tank and i have zilean ulti on me". If they do attak the tank and he is so out of position that they kill him before it kicks in, that means he would have to be so far out of position Zilean would not be able to use the ulitmate in the first place. If he is in the situation where he can you have just focused a tank and the enemy team will be able to protect him while he falls back for a few seconds and then re-tanks. See where im going? you have eliminated the abuse concept for the same abuse concept with only slightly better aspects of winning. You've achieved your goal of a passive that punishes you for dying yes, but the likelihood of the scenario is very low in the first place and the end result in a teamfight still stands except now you get another massive teamfight changing ulti back in.

With an end result still giving the same possible scenario,  it gives a lot of power to a champion that doesnt need it where it is going. Zilean's biggest problem right now is that the rest of his kit is really weak because his ulti is so strong.

My reducing it to just a janna ulti is what would essentially happen if the ulti lost the CD aspect of it. It was not an insult it was a mostly factual statement in the regards to the changes I made to your rendition of the ult. My point was you strip out all abusable aspects and its not unique so if we leave an abusable aspect the end result seems mostly the same without much difference. In short my biggest problem with this whole thing is that you are attempting to get rid of an abuse case and justifying it by saying its more "its more powerful"  and then you're saying "its not more powerful"  it seems to work just about the same except with a huge increase in power on a spell that doesnt need more power. HIs ult, for all intents and purposes, isnt fine and maybe your ulti could be a better fix. this does not change my opinion that the end result is equal frustration at not killing the tank that you wanted to kill in the first place unless both zil and the tank are greviously out of position, which was bound to happen in the first place.

Finally addressing the point of changing ults not being a big deal is simple. It IS a big deal. changing ults imo is a very abusable thing if for no other purpose than the fact that the enemy cant really do much about it if it is given to a tank. Please note, some of the most game changing ults are on tanks who could essentially abuse this anyway. If used on a carry it is equally abusable except with higher safety and greater reward. yeah you have a decent fix, but i honestly couldnt tell you the exact metrics for a good fix without something comparable.

From my perspective you are trading a fringe abuse case for an easy abuse case. Something that is not advisable. If i've offended you sorry to hear that but i mean take a chill pill bro its not that big of a deal. We have all had ideas that sound good to us then someone else hears it and they're like "that's stupid OP". It happens. When you post a balancing idea up you need to confront this thought process willing to except that others will say this "like myself" and have no idea how to fix or make better an idea because all we see it the bad we cannot see the good. This is where your job comes into play as the idea maker to make it good regardless of criticisim.