Talk:Riven/@comment-33536623-20140127122040/@comment-9008617-20140201185641

'''"Hmm, but then for theorycrafting, you'd have to include EVERY variable, for example the Perseverance in the Defence mastery, minion agro, jungle pressure etc. It'd be even hard to theorise the mindset of the player (go in, don't go in, get CS for harass) and we'd be making assumptions in regards to it. When we take a person's experience of the matchup, all the above factors would be included in it but it'd only be in regards to that 1 situation. Anywho, I guess its your view on which is better." - Cliff'''

No. My god, no.

Don't you dare try to belittle this into a "matter of opinion". Anecdotal evidence by definition will always be a collection of unreliable personal stories. We know that Garen with always do X amount of damage with X masteries/runes/items against a Riven with X masteries/runes/items. What we will never know is how skilled the player is, what they're thinking, if their boyfriend/girlfriend is cheating on them and they sort of know so it's weighing on their mind, etc.

Just because you're too lazy to consider all the factors that we can calculate using actual facts doesn't mean that anecdotal evidence is suddenly a complete picture.

I knew you wanted to take the argument in this direction but it's just such a stupid reasoning.

"I see the matchup as a counter because his silence messes up her combo (as in she can't complete it until it wears out)" - Cliff

And as mentioned numerous times now, the silence was nerfed awhile back. It now only lasts 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds at rank 1. Riven needs time to AA anyways.

'''"...and he's tankier than her. If they trade, he can outsustain her with his passive and higher HP regen as well as push waves with a few lvls in E." - Cliff'''

Do the math because early on Riven has superior damage in trades.

Riven's passive is active during trades whereas Garen's passive requires him to sit out for at least 9 seconds to activate it and everytime he goes in to engage means it's likely going to be de-activated.

Pushing waves is a very bad idea because it allows Riven to turn it into a farm lane from the safety of being closer to her tower. Garen has terrible siege mechanics (i.e. none).

'''"And i'll specify it, the counter was meant for laning phase, which is important for Riven to get her snowballing and obtain items. Garen's late game isn't spectacular as well but bringing Riven down with you is a + point." - Cliff'''

And the problem again is that Garen doesn't actually counter Riven during laning phase. Garen's silence duration is a moot point during laning phase, his spin 2 win inadvertently pushes lane, and his passive actually requires he play more passively and not aggressively.

Riven just needs to farm and she'll scale into a beast. Garen has no real mechanics or harass to stop her from farming.

Honestly, it feels like it's just some people are still caught up with the old Garen especially the pre-nerf to his Q.

'''"Shyvanna W vs Garen E is 700 vs ~970 with 100 bonus AD at lvl 10 without AA's." - Cliff'''

But you have to factor in AAs since that's how you prolong Shyv's W...

And it's also convenient to leave out the AA portion because Garen can't AA during his spin2win...

Whereas Garen's does physical, Shyv's does magical damage but still scales on AD making it harder to itemize against (similar to champs like Poppy).

And you really shouldn't just be comparing one skill to one skill but rather look at the skills as a whole/kit.

'''"Things to note, Shyvanna's total damage needs a max of 7 secs with 4 AA's and Garen's is a static 3 secs. I agree she has a lot of damage in her kit, utility... 1 knockback which isn't reliable." - Cliff'''

Like you alluded to but failed to fully address or include in your calculations, Shyv also has AAs during her W (her Q also acts as an AA reset and applies on-hit effects).

A flamebreath that does AoE magic damage and causes basic attacks from all allies, pets, AND even minions to do an extra 2% of max health in damage in MAGIC damage.

And I prefer to have a giant dragon swoop up all my enemies for me rather than some guy screaming Demaciaaaa and needing to run up and punch someone in the face just to silence one person.

I agree that Shyv's ganks are horrendous since she has essentially no CC but that AoE swoop is way more useful in the majority of teamfights than the silence which is probably why we tend to see Shyv in higher levels of play rather than Garen...