Talk:Udyr/@comment-69.230.168.59-20120520210411/@comment-202.7.185.232-20120531083802

1. Turtle is basically spammable any time bar early, early game, due to his low base CD and Turtle's generally awesome sustain.

2. Easily overcome by stance dancing, also makes him ridiculously hard to beat. Has great sustained dps through his passive, switching to Tiger and smacking you then switching to Turtle gives the enemy the Tiger DoT and you get the Shield and Sustain back.

3. Tiger is basically a 1 point wonder, even in lane. Only time a Lanedyr should level Tiger over his Turtle is if he's completely Roflstomping the lane and wants to snowball outrageously.

4. Again, as Turtle is a priority no matter what, after a couple of levels in it Turtle's sustain becomes stupidly effective. Doesn't hurt that with one AS item, it becomes even better. His sustain is really only bad early early game, from levels 1-6 if laning. If jungling, he can always bear and run if he's caught in the jungle, and if he's ganking, HE decides how the gank goes down and more often than not can escape thanks to Bear's Stun/MS increase.

5. Udyr's shield returns mana, remember? Baiting the shield is silly once he has some levels under him and his Mana pool is larger, unless you plan to bait him 10-12 times, and if you ARE trying to do that, chances are he'll just tiger you and make you run like a little girl because Tiger hurts so damn much. I will agree that baiting the shield repeatedly early game when his pool is low and he has lower sustain works effectively, but it's really only a temporary strategy.

6. Yes, he is.

7. Yes, you should. However, if he's laning, he's laning top, which is "usually" the place for bruisers to go, and there are hardly any bruisers that have burst damage. Most have 1-2 skills for damage, and a steroid of some kind (not including ults). So if you gank him, best of luck. Bear stance is awesome for escaping ganks. Kiting is his absolute weakness, it's really the only thing that keeps him from being broken. A strong counterpick to Udyr imo s Kennen, due to his ability to put a lot of pressure on Lanedyr early game. If we are talking about Jungledyr, invading him isn't the smartest idea. Pheonix also hurts early game, just not as much as Tiger, and he still likely has Bear. If you aren't counter-jungling, the only time you'll see Jungledyr is when he ganks, and since ganks have the ball in the ganker's court, he's got an advantage.

So yeah, yyou have some valid points, but most of them can be summarised by "Hurt him more than he can hurt you early game, and he's severely set back." The trick is not to harass as a melee champ is at all possible, because Tiger to Turtle and back to farming allows him to hurt you a lot while he goes on his merry way. Udyr is a difficult champion to handle, and unless you have a capable Solo top, ask for ganks all the time. He has trouble against repeated ganks, just like anyone without solid escape mechanisms.