Talk:Senna/@comment-6301771-20191031183439/@comment-7709681-20191101002116

> Right she's an AD Veigar, which isn't necessarily bad since she seems to stack a lot slower, but I agree PrimusMobileVzla that she needs to be rebalanced toward Support.

Personally from testing they get stacks at the same rate only if Senna is duo-laning. As a solo-laner she's definitely slower at stacking than Veigar, if to the example comes to. However, she offsets that by the amount of bonuses she gets from stacks alone, considering that the Innate is more than that.

> Her Support identity seems really fun with a strange point-and-click skillshot that also heals, some CC, the strangeness that is her E, and the awesomeness that is her Ult. Right now she's heavily favored toward the ADC roll, and needs to be broguth back toward the middle, with two real paths she can take.

Agree with this. Gypsylord already mentioned that he intends for both role options to be viable but balance will lean towards Support, but right know that's no longer the case: She scales either way because in either roles gets the same amount of stacks, so the diference resumes to builds, and right now it favors ADC builds in tenfolds.

> 1) Make her the passive on her AD into Adaptive Force that deals Physical Damage. Right now she scales infinitely into AD, there's no way she's not gonna be building into that to snowball.

I suggested this below, to change from infinite AD to infinite AF.

> 2) Make her bonus damage scale with AP as well, or whichever is higher. Again, this is more incentive to build AP or support and would give her a unique style with On-Hit builds.

So, adaptive damage like on some runes? Don't think that's enough. Do agree on the adaptive force but would change it from total AD to a flat amount plus AP. Even then, I would rather suggest to straight up remove it if Q's damage gets an AP ratio.

> 3) Remove the AP-to-AF scaling, it's pointless with the Support Itemization changes and, as PMV says, makes the AP Spelltheifs items out-and-out better than the AD version. There should be a tradeoff if you want to go full damage

Eeyup, but more than that the kit requires more incentives to build as AP without falling into hybridization.

> 4) Give her higher AP ratios and MORE AP ratios to give her a solid Enchanter identity(and nerf some of her AD ratios to make the AP route comparatively better). If she goes AP right now she basically just has a Heal and a Shield, and everything else deals no damage. If she goes AD she shouldn't get very good healing, but if she goes AP she should be able to deal some damage.

Not exactly. Right now the issue is that AP ratios are unnecesary since 1) everything scales with AD which she gets infinte amounts off, 2) her AP ratios suck, 3) her heal scales with AD, 4) her shield scales (better) with stacks. Right now is irrelevant which role she picks she ends up the same either way, but does better building as an ADC than a Support.

> Passive: On top of making her AD stacks into AF, possibly make them scale differently? Remove the AF scaling on Support items. Probably cap her AA/Q range at something high but reasonable(no champ should be able to outrange turrets without RFC and/or an active ability) and/or lower the range buff(and/or base range), and possibly lower the CritChance per 20 stacks(as-is she only needs 2 crit items to reach max at a reasonable point in the game. That's not okay for a markman, much less one who isn't even CSing.).

Solution is simple: Remove 1) her ability to produce Wraiths herself, 2) Wraiths granting gold, 3) the infinite crit chance, 4) the Surplus-Crit-to-Lifesteal convertion, 5) the AP-to-AF convertion for SE item-line.

Also, possibly nerf the bonus on-hit damage (if Q gets an AP ratio), the percentile health damage from collecting champions and the bonus range per stacks milestones.

To compensate/adjust: 1) Turn the infinite AD into infinite AF, 2) turn the bonus on-hit damage into flat+AP adaptive damage from tAD physical damage (only if Q doesn't get an AP ratio), 3) add a heal that triggers only upon collecting stacks from one or more champions, possibly based on stack milestones like the other stats.

> Q: Give her AP scaling on damage, lower the AD scaling on the heal, and raise the AP on her heal(mostly to make up for the lost AD scaling, but support/AP healing should naturally be stronger than AD healing). Perhaps even lower the base healing to reinforce the AP/Support route's identity.

She doesn't have a self heal on Q (that's why I suggest one based on collecting from champions, also as a safe trade-off for the removal of Crit-to-Lifesteal).

Agree the heal should have it's AP ratio buffed, and replace the AD ratio on it for a stack ratio. However, in regards on an AP ratio for the damage, would rather change the on-hit damage from the innate, so there's no need to incidentally bump the damage.

>  W: Actually, leave this one as-is damage-wise. AD Senna should still have nice things and a solid identity. AP/Support still gets a really nice CC ability, and will probably end up building more CDR on average.

At most would suggest to change the Root being based on ranks to flat+AP, but that's tentative. Do agree this doesn't need much change.

> E: No change, this is pure Utility.

I do have one: Removing the ability to restore Wraith Form if the affected unit attacks or casts a spell. Not only because rarely allies recover the effect (more often is Senna that does), but also because on Senna makes her strong with Duskblade as can trigger it multiple times ala Kha'Zix's R. It can still recover if enemies leave the affected unit's vicinity.

> R: Same as the Q. Give her higher slightly AP damage scaling, and I'd argue give her an enormous buff to the shield scaling, and lengthen the duration on the shield. When Support or AP Senna Ults from across the map, it should change the tide of battle. (For the Mist scaling, with the possibility of it getting too complicated, I might suggest making the scaling multiplicative with AD and AP, in a way that vastly favors AP Senna and actually lowers how much AD Senna is currently shielding.)

Would suggest differently: Nerf the damage's AD ratio and buff the shield's AP ratio, don't touch anything else here.