Talk:Zac/@comment-8506165-20141213034041/@comment-8506165-20150116102709

I would remind you again that we have differing definitions of "tank": under my definition, Zac isn't going to be a tank without a kit rework, and under yours he already is one. I think bickering over the tags is thus a bit of a distraction from the real discussion, seeing as I seem to be saying "by my definition he's a fighter, let's give him appropriate tools!" and you're saying "No, he's clearly a tank, let's give him appropriate tools!" - for all I know some of the things we're arguing for when we say those could be identical.

"The only crowd control Amumu has beyond his ultimate is an 8-second cooldown, single-target stun. Zac has a 12-second cooldown AoE knockup and a 7-second cooldown AoE slow. Both are easier to land than Gragas's crowd control, and allow him to initiate from a much longer range."

Amumu stun: true, but I only said he had a shorter hard CC cooldown - and he can itemise CDR more easily. Which seems unfair when he does so much more damage than Zac and has such a good R engage. I don't think Zac's E potentially being AOE (it's a small AOE, and telegraphed to boot unless it's a tap cast) and his discount Maokai Q make up the difference. Gragas' CC... eh, I never found Body Slam or Barrel Roll harder to land than Zac's E? It's subjective at the very least.

"but you can't just pretend he has nothing that makes him interesting on his own; it's not a good basis for discussing a champion with a healthy and unique playstyle."

Zac's chunk mechanic is interesting. Zac's E is interesting. Zac's R is pretty interesting, if weaker compared to the release version with its tenacity. His Q and W are a bit lazy, but not terrible - not like every champion is going to have all their moves completely unique, although I do wish the Q was a little better... I can note all of this while protesting that he's not viable, though. If there is some genius solution to Zac being terrible at the moment that builds on some of his more unique elements, fine, I'd take it. But at the moment I'm comparing him to other champions because that's fundamentally how champion select works: you look at someone and think "what do they bring to the team that another champion won't?"

I mean hell they could just revert 3.11 which was the "Zac becomes unviable patch" because changing his chunk behaviour was what dropped him off the radar completely, and that would buff him in a way that exemplifies his unique strengths, but will Riot do that? Nope. Might as well ask for the tenacity back on the ult. So I'm looking for "stuff Riot might actually implement".