Talk:Riven/@comment-33536623-20140127122040/@comment-9008617-20140202091501

'''"Well, because of Shyvanna's hybrid damage, she can't build pen from items since it would only benefit about half of her kit." - Cliff'''

Most Shyv's run hybrid pen runes and some mpen (i.e.Wit's End steals 5 MR per hit up to 25 MR). The beauty of hybrid is that almost no one can itemize for both armor and MR. It's just simply not cost efficient. But Shyv's role is really tank first and fighter second. It just happens she does a lot of nice AoE magic damage and the flame breath really helps your team (especially the ADC) do that extra % max health magic damage.

'''"And yeah... this was a thread about counters but I think it stopped being about it after the 2nd comment from the OP." - Cliff'''

Actually I would say the thread stop being about counters when Mege chimed in. There actually was quite a few on-topic posts before the derailment.

Six posts before Mege started derailing, Herzog was still talking about Eve being a counter. Four posts before Mege, Swift was agreeing with me about Garen/Riven. For the next 3 posts, Leyrann and I have another one of our lively "debates" (Leyrann claiming that once Garen QE's Riven that Riven drops trousers and just takes it - no fighting back, no running). I tell Leyrann that Riven can still AA while silenced to which Leyrann says he/she can't debate with that logic. Then enter Mege telling me she agrees with Leyrann and that I'm well thought out and well written but a complete noob...

What follows is you and Mege taking stabs at me and telling me to "stop calling yourself a victim". Throw in some nice posters agreeing with me <3. Followed by more derailing. Followed by you acting as if this wasn't derailed by you two.