Talk:Veigar/@comment-25532677-20170915232349/@comment-24385282-20171010215007

Keeping low mobility and infinite scaling are for sure core parts of keeping his identity and playstyle.

is honestly pretty good with his current. It doesn't give him too much area of effect damage, but it rewards him with properly lining up and aiming a skillshot for the potential to gain extra. Of course, if the scaling mechanic changes, might not be as fitting and could change. I don't think this needs to be better for farming or have a cheaper. Though, if another ability became better for waveclear at a higher cost, I could see lowering  so  isn't too drained to poke after farming.

I totally agree that needs to be more than just "delayed area of effect nuke," and the cooldown reduction change that was implemented doesn't help it much there. Right now it synergizes with  in a clean, simple way:  enemies can't get out of the area of impact during the delay, and moreover enemies trapped inside  walls will have very little room to dodge. It's a very effective synergy. How changes is probably pretty reliant on what happens to the rest of  kit. It should stay a damaging effect, and probably be kept a burst tool.

is one of the most annoying effects in the game, given that if  can just walk up to you, you'll have very confined movement or face being  for a fair duration. Either way, you'll be more or less at the mercy of his. Counterplay includes blinking away, dropping your own crowd control on, or being able to out-damage him under his own terms. For the first, most champions have only, which suffers its long cooldown making it unavailable or risky to use. The second, will at the very least usually not come out on bottom. If the third is your counterplay, he probably won't have advanced on you in the first place. Getting out before come down is rarely possible in its short delay if  aimed to catch you inside the, as dashes tend to just get cut short.

So, totally reworking is probably a pretty good choice. I'm not sure what you mean to imply by an "actual black hole," but I imagine something along the lines of  in terms of its effect. It depends on the specifics of the idea, of course, but I don't think that helps much to get rid of an annoying mechanic. At least moving it to ultimate would increase its cooldown and it'd tend to be saved for multi-champion-catches in teamfights rather than used as a once-or-twice-per-skirmish tool to ensure you land more damage.

As shows,  is a strong mechanic for mages to counter high-mobility assassins, though when covering a decent area and being coupled with a  as hers is, it also falls a bit high on the "annoyingness of crowd control" scale. could have field that enemies inside it (along with another effect?), which stays as a basic ability. I think this leaves a lot of options for what goes in slot - perhaps something reminiscent of   as far as a damaging skillshot that requires you to both predict and track your target's movement for maximum damage. It could be implemented in a number of ways and would synergize well with a field that enemies will want to circumvent or be forced to move a bit more slowly and predictably through.