Talk:Vel'Koz/@comment-9048637-20151108223258/@comment-9048637-20151122001023

"Opportunity cost??? LOL what?? They aren't "free" in any sense because it came at the cost somewhere else whether you're giving up AP or MPEN for your CDR runes"

Congratulations, you just defined what an opportunity cost is. Try looking up terms like this before you decide you're going to be a snide jerk

"Flat AP or MPEN typically being worth more than scaling CDR until a certain point"

That's not something you can really make a blanket statement about. For instance, on Vel'Koz, who's AP scalings are meh, CDR (and, in fairness, Mpen) are worth more than raw AP compared with someone like, say, Annie. Conversely, Annie doesn't care much about CDR, while she does care an awful lot about AP and pen.

"Also I fucking hate "gold efficiency" since it's a broken metric. Even if there was an item that was 5000% gold efficient it doesn't mean dick if it's only sole purpose was to restore "energy" on Velkoz."

Okay? I never brought up gold efficiency once. In fact, I agree with you that it's a terrible metric in most situations. So while you felt the need to throw that at me, I'm a bit confused. If anything, you're the one who's bringing the notional gold value of runes into it.

"Your metric is really flawed and hard to actually put a value on. For instance, if you're behind and you have your scaling CDR, what good is it if you have zero AP items? Or if you have no mpen and they're stacking big magic resist items already?"

You're making a lot of meat out of a point that was mostly tangential to what I was arguing. But hey, I'll bite. You do still have base damages. They're quite good. I'd argue that CDR to leverage this base damage is more important than AP. Pen is even better, but the most pen I ever suggested sacrificing was 2 from a quint. I'm not saying suggesting you sacrifice Sorcs or Liandry's, or any of your reds.

"10% CDR is the equivalent of 6 Glyphs not 3."

And if you'd read my previous comments, you'd notice I was also proposing running a scaling CDR quint. I know you'll harp on some more about how great AP quints are in response to this, but while that's generally the case, on Vel'Koz specifically (which is solely what I'm talking about here; I was absolutely not making general comments about mages).

"In terms of rune efficiency, 3 scaling AP glyphs gives 9 AP at 18 whereas 2 Flat AP Quints gives 10 AP at level 1.

Meanwhile 6 scaling CDR glyphs gives 10% CDR at 18 whereas 2 Flat CDR Quints gives 5% CDR at level 1 or 2 Scaling CDR Quints gives 10% CDR at 18.

Point being, you're giving up a lot of early game strength by giving up the Flat AP Quints for scaling CDR. The Flat AP Quints are one of the strongest and most efficient runes in the game for APCs; they are up there with armor/hp seals. Scaling runes in general make you especially weak early game because they do nothing for you early. Speaking as an ADC/Support main, it's your support's job to help your ADC get ahead in lane - not the other way around. You're going to get bullied and cause both you and your ADC to fall behind."

It confuses me a little that you're talking rune 'efficiency' when you were raging about gold efficiency just now. But that aside: yes, AP quints are very good quints. I would argue that they're less obligatory on Vel'Koz, though. I've already switched them out to Mpen on Vel'Koz. They may be better for your harrass in lane, but I feel that the point of Vel'Koz mid (which is what I play; if you think support is different, I'll give you that, but it's irrelevant to me since I don't play it and so it wasn't what I was talking about in the first place) is to farm up in lane and bring your poke and your ult to teamfights. If you can get kills on the enemy in lane, that's gravy. Personally, though, I prefer to maximize my performance at later stages of the game, which I feel the rune set-up I'm suggesting accomplishes better than the bog standard APC set-up.

Also, while we're talking about scaling runes, bear in mind that for at least a whole season it's been standard on mid laners to run either scaling AP or scaling CDR blues, and for that matter scaling HP yellows. So the idea that scaling runes are somehow worthless is a view that runs contrary to a great deal of consensus, and while I'm not going to suggest one should always follow the consensus, in this case I feel that the consensus has it pretty well on the money.

"We're not talking about post laning phase though per force. If we could ignore laning phase and skip straight to level 18 and full build then everyone would be running scaling runes (i.e. scaling AD, scaling HP, scaling MR, etc over their flat counterparts)."

Except for the purposes of mana management we are talking post laning phase. Your point was that you can OOM yourself with max CDR. You're not hitting max CDR until after the laning phase. Ergo, my point that post laning phase OOMing yourself on Vel'Koz shouldn't be a burning concern is valid. Also, mid laners already run scaling HP, because it breaks even with flat at level 6, which is where mid lane fights start getting really dangerous. I know supports run flat, but the dynamics of bot lane are very different to the dynamics of mid lane. And, again, I'm talking about mid lane. If you want to talk about support, fine, but I don't have anything to say on the matter, so why you're talking to me about it is a bit mystifying. Though given that you talked about getting blue buff, I assume you can't just be talking about support, so...

"I'm not sure about this season since grievous wounds is available on more items (i.e. Mortal Reminder) but Morello's was the go-to item over Athene's in season 5 unless you were running against a very high AP threat team. Morello's offers 33% more AP, a source of grievous wounds, and costs 250 gold less than Athenes."

I know? I never suggested Athene's was better than Morello's on Vel, unless you really want the MR for laning. I was just recognizing it as a possibility that some people do opt for, and noting that Morello's does leave the possibility of OOMing yourself open (though not by much, hence my comment about extended sieges), while Athene's doesn't.

"That's a silly way to look at it. It's all perspective. You're changing what the point of relevance is. This doesn't change the fact that on a 10 sec CD spell that each 10% CDR will lower the CD by 1 second flat.

10s CD with 40% CDR is a 6 second CD spell.

I know what you're trying to say but it's really picking at straws to make an argument."

My 'silly way of looking at it' is not something I invented on the spot, it's a logic that's well recognized among theory crafters. You accuse me of picking at straws to make an argument; I suppose I should just opt for your strategy and skip the argument in favour of empty insults interspersed with repeating my previous points with no change.

Look, think of it this way: if it were possible to get up to 100% CDR in League, the final 10% would bring you down from having 'a cooldown' to 'no cooldown', which should be self-evidently more worth it even though it's the same flat amount the first 10% shaved off. Suddenly, your ability spam is limited only by your cast times. Compare this to that first 10%, which lets you use your abilities... a little more frequently. That's why CDR scales cumulatively.

Also, as I tried to point out before, your argument against CDR here could easily be extended to all CDR, which as far as I know you're not arguing against, for all that it sometimes seems that way. That 1 second you're rubbishing is exactly what that first 10% of CDR you're getting is shaving off. So should you never get CDR? By your logic here, no.

"Now you're just trying too hard to oversimplify.

Absolutely no one is arguing that max CDR is bad to have on any champion that's reliant on spells and CDs but rather what is the most efficient and practical build to achieve the most success with Velkoz?

Because in order to get max CDR you're going to have to make sacrifices in your build and build order."

Now you're trying too hard to present strawmen.

Of course I realize that. What I'm saying is that the sacrifices you make are worth it because max CDR is very valuable on Vel'Koz.