Talk:Riven/@comment-8733289-20131224042732/@comment-9008617-20140106162531

@CliffShadow:

You've still failed to address a lot of our main points and, once again, you've merely alluded to other shields having "other benefits". Riven's shield scaling purely off AD is a HUGE factor because even with a modest 200 bonus AD you're looking at a 400'ish health shield EVERY 6 SECONDS and costs NOTHING. Lee Sin's shield is 200 every 9 seconds and costs 40% of his energy pool and is unlikely to get better because Lee Sins are unlikely to build more AP. Because Riven's kit is meant to be more of a caster-orientated, it also means that Rivens typically don't build a lot of AS either which means building even more AD, CDR, or tanky items whereas other champs (including Lee Sin) may have to build AS or suffer from a lack of DPS.

"Lee's shield scales off of AP and does numerous other things which i've tried saying 2-3 times and will not repeat again..."

What numerous other things? You make it sound like scaling off AP is a good thing for Lee Sin lol... The LS/SV issue I've already addressed and similarly the shielding of allies for a whopping 200 hp (i.e. not "doubling their effective health"). You've completely disregarded how I brought up Riven's shield is used differently (i.e. doesn't need an allied unit/ward to gap close) or that it's much more spammable than all the other shields you've mentioned. Late game, Lee Sin's shield is used more as an escape/disengage rather than a lifesaver (although it happens) since it's really small and requires Lee Sin to enter the fray/danger unlike say Lux's shield.

"And in terms of CDR, the only options available to her in particular are : Lucidity Boots, Black Cleaver, Youmuu's Ghostblade and Spirit Visage. All of these gives 15%, 10%, 10% and 20%(10%). In most cases, I go for only Black Cleaver fro the ablove list as it gives a good amount of stats which I feel are important."

Lucidity, BC, and Spirit Visage/Frozen Heart = max CDR

Even just running Lucidity and BC gives you 25% CDR and many Rivens just run CDR runes to lower CD even more. Even with just 25% CDR: Q (AoE knock up) is now 9.75 s down from 13, W (AoE stun) is 5.25 down from 7, E (gap closer + shield) is 4.5 down from 6, and the ult is 37.5 down from 50 (doesn't have Lux's range but damn, that CD and range)...

In regards to the Ezreal comparison, I only meant to show just ridiculously low Riven's CDs are which I think proved my case when you need to compare not to just a regular ADC Ezreal but a Blue Ezreal (shudder) whom I consider more of a utility ADC than a real ADC. In the previous paragraph I pointed out how a mere 2 common items on Riven (Lucidity and BC) drops her shielded gap closer to 4.5 seconds. Most ADCs do not run a lot of CDR and even prefer LW over BC because ADCs like Ezreal are expected to help melt tanks.

"Late game, mana becomes even less of an issue to mana related champs."

Early, Mid, and Late game resourceless champs have the same problem - nothing.

Blue Ezreal can spam his Q but it'll still cost him 40 mana per shot every 1.4 seconds. I don't feel like running the math but even with a blue build/manamuna that Ezreal would run out of mana if he actually spammed every skill every chance he got. Riven does not run out of mana ever.

Similarly, as mentioned by U N Ovvrn, ward jumping for Lee Sin is limited to the number of wards available and therefore has a finite limit. Riven is not limited in that fashion for engaging. Not to mention the more skill it requires to ward jump to engage all for an inferior shield meanwhile Riven just has to E in whatever direction she wants to go...

"Actually, I think a wukong E,Q, ult can outdamage a riven. Since his full combo takes place in a matter of 5-6 seconds and knocks her up for 1."

1.  A 1 vs 1 between champions proves what exactly? LoL is a TEAM game. Wu's ult is GODLY with respect to the teamfight aspect and I feel like you would've had a better case if you had brought up Wu's ult in the context of a teamfight instead of another idiotic "X champ and beat Y champ if..."

2.  If you E-Q into a Riven as Wu then Riven can W (stun) you or better yet activate her shield and mitigate the incoming burst damage. When you knock her up in Wu's ult, as soon as she lands Riven can then stun you dealing 170 + 100% bonus AD and stopping your ultimate - and then turning on her ultimate and continuing with her easy peasy ult-empowered combo. Meanwhile you've burned Wu's AS buff because the 4 seconds has expired between you Q'ing and ulting for 2 seconds and then getting stunned for about 1 second. And by the time Riven's done knocking you around, her shield/gap closer/escape is up again.

"Something which I think you didn't know, wukong is a very bursty champion," 

Please don't pull a Leyrann.

"He can be played as a tanky initiator or a bursty semi-assasin."

If you go tanky then you'll lack damage and if you run bursty assassin then you'll lack survivability. Riven can run pretty much pure AD and like one defensive item because her shield scales off AD giving her effectively 400 hp shield every 6 seconds and Riven has 2 forms of spammable CC that allow Riven to get free hits in whereas Wu's only CC is his 90 sec CD ult.

"True top lane isn't about kiting and all (hmm mundo could probably kite her with the Q's) but you are bringing up something different when I was referring to her ability to gap close. Also, even if a person is a few levels behind, he can contribute to a fight. It will not be a 5vs4 unless he rq's or dc's or something."

What...?

TLDR:  Riven has an amazing kit and you really need to do a better job at being coherent. I've thrown numerous points at you and all you do is repeat your same point even if it gets debunked and then bring up the strongest point of another champ to make comparisons to Riven... The fact that you've tried to compare parts of Riven's kit to Lee Sin/Janna's shields, the spammability of a Blue Ezreal, and the burstiness of a Wu Kong makes me worried. ^^"