Talk:Riven/@comment-5209745-20131204175508/@comment-24212263-20131206051714

"However, Riven is a fast jungler, and if you get a smiteless first buff and immediately walk over to the second buff, you get there at the LAST while the enemy is busy with his buff. Drink pot, go in with your triple Q and W."

... this is cheese ._.

If the jungle is warded, if laners reacted, if the opposing jungle isn't MECHANICALLY RETARDED you will die :D

Disagree?... go watch the ogn. The NA scene is very poor for league education.

"No level 2 in this game can 1v1 a Riven with red pot and either buff, "

This is false. Udyr will eat her face xD. Lee sin can easily outduel her(actually no... its hard but assuming top notch mechanics the duel would go smooth for lee. No slacking please, top level play is a requirment). Nunu can out manuver Riven and leave her in a vulnerable state(or just trade buffs/invasion). Xin Zhao is Xin Zhao. Pretty much most junglers can survive and put riven at risk especially if they are smart enough to force riven in between them and a murderous red buff(this cannot be avoided which is why smite steal is required for a true invade which is extreamly risky on your part).

Riven is not the best duelist. She can murder really well but after her combo she is extreamly vulnerable and lack the sustained damage other junglers have convienietly.

"PS If you want to say "laners will help their jungler at higher elos", the elo where people get map awarness to help their invaded jungler is the same elo where people get the map awareness to help their invading jungler."

- The defending laners would get there first (especially... *shudders*... bot lane....)

- Like said before, you will have the disadvantage in risk (they smite the buff then they'll be a higher level) and positioning (buffs are op).

- This is also a champion select influence too. Of course the side with a mid laner leblanc would be better off here.

- Riven is nocturne but more burst and less sustained. Can't duel. Just murder.