Talk:Garen/@comment-81.51.86.82-20120814102309/@comment-81.51.86.82-20120815042811

Yo yo calm down brah,people overexagerate a lot these days.

First off his passive isnt stoped by minion agro,and is affected by cdr,so with a ghostbalde and a randuin its only 1 second more while not being affected by minions anymore.

=> It's not effective at the first day in PBE, so it's nice, but i continue think Garen don't need a passive like that.

His q as mentioned can crit...which is really good now,also the ms is the same at all levels,i agree the duration nerf is quite big,its for the better good of lategame,also +20 or 40 more dmg is really nice,the 1 sec more cd isnt much.

=> No, the spell can't crit ... Auto hit crit and add the bonus damage of the spell, it's different ... This is the same thing for Talon.

Also the removal from E is imo quite good as you couldnt charge with judgement in a tf.

Also the new 30% cc on w and the duration increase is awesome,really,this makes him almost imune to cc with a merc and juggernaut mastery,giving him 60% cc reduction.

=> The problem in end-game is permanent slows ... AP with Rylai, Jungler and top with frozen mallet and AD carry with red buff + support with his abilities ...

With or without 60% reduce CC, and with or without Q, the slwo is reset every second ... So it help you for mid game, but not in late.

If you build Atma+Randuin+Maw+Mercs+IE+GA you can get 30-50 more armor/mr from his W passive,you also dont need to farm it anymore early,ya its 10 armor/mr less but its quite good that you dont need to farm anymore,and lategame the buff is awesome.Imagine full tank garen...imposible to kill now.

=> If i build that, you can't be competitive ...

2500 hp with 300 armor is bad, your effective HPs are less than an other off-tank with 200 armor and 3500 HP. And contrary a lot of other off-tank, you have no Dash.

GA is particulary useless on garen, no hard CC or great regen by auto hit. If you want an item with armor and magic resist, Aegis can be great.

Atma is a very VERY bad choice. With 2500 HP you win : 25x1,5=37,5 damage

It's Better for your late to choose a real defensive or real offensive item.

His E has actually 120 base damage at max level.Losing 260 damage overall.BUt you can crit for your whole ad ratio(1.1 actually) in aoe...which is awesome!I also heard it gives no unit colision.So whilst youll deal 100 less damage lategame,if you buy crit youll deal 200-300 more which is awesome.

=> critical from Judgment have a strange unknow formula and this formula don't change.

I know she is based on damage of the spell and crits deal ~1,5 damage for the hit (Judgment have six hit).

So lose damage in late without crit = lose more damage in late with crit. Ifs gains are multiply, loses are too.

Exemple with 50% crit and 200 AD bonus :

actual : 1470 x1,5 = 2205

after "buff" : 1389,6 x1,5 = 2084,4

You see that and think 2200 is awesome. But don't forget it's over 3 second + on zero armor guy.

By second, Judgement deal after the "buff" in end-game : 690 damage

On 100 armor guy (it's low, AD carry for exemple are generally 160 with GA), it deal ONLY 340 damage by second ... Compare to all others off-tanks, garen is one of worst, with or without changes.

For AoE damage, Riven or Rumble for exemple are 100 times better.

HIs R i agree is good for lategame now.80 secs is nice whilst the early increase is quite huge,you gotta admit on riots reasoning,coming back in lane and then having it again just to get killed by garen again is quite frustrating.Also did i mention you can use Ult while judgement is on?Canceling it automatically?How cool is that.

=> Like i say : Q spell deal more damage in end-game by ultimate, it's ridiculous

Also note garens base ad is getting nerfed but the scaling is getting bigger.

=> Scaling nerfed ;) !

Overall a decent nerf on early game.You can still rape faces early,but yoiu have a signifcantly better lategame,and can tank like a baws.

=> STRONG nerf

Contrary who 90% of players think, Garen early game is not beast atm. How to counter Garen in early ? it's easy ... when he come for combo you, don't back, use potions and auto-hit him + use your spells when silence is end. Garen will lose 2 or 3 times more hp than you, depend of your char and start item (armor +5 potions counter Garen in lane 100%).

Be honest, early game is nerfed only because frustrant for low elo players. It's why riot need to change Darius, he is balanced but stomp hard low elos.

ALso E now deals 75% damage to creeps so you can farm better,though jungle garen isnt viable still.

=> It's a bad thing. Why ? When you attack your opponent, you push automatically and you push HARD (level 5, Judgment can kill two times the minions with 40-50 AD bonus lol). Get ganked with a red buff and it's the end for you.

A last thing about Garen :

Play Garen versus an random opponent with 2 spells builds :

R>E>Q>W and R>W>Q>E

With a classical stuff (Exemple : mercury boots, yuumu, randuin, frozen mallet) the second will be 100 times better. And the first can't rivalised with equal stuff ...

Garen is IMPOSSIBLE to balanced atm, if Riot don't change some things on him.