Talk:Lee Sin/@comment-7007348-20140131103454/@comment-24524617-20140210143338

What you're saying here is at the very least ridiculous and at the very worst disingenuous. You, again, go to your usual tricks by making strong claims, throwing a number in every once in a while to make it seem legitimate and then depending on others not caring enough to fact check you.

First, you say 'ok, take away panth's ult' and then try to argue basically that it makes no difference. However, given the numbers posted right above your post, simple math shows that losing just his ult makes Panth's full combo damage less than Kha'zix' all by itself:

Kha:

passive- 190

q -  190 (+150% bonus AD), or evolved q= 275.5(+217.5% bonus AD)

w- 235(+100% bonus AD)

e- 205(+80% bonus AD)

=900.5+397.5 bonus AD

Panth:

q- 225 (+140% bonus AD)

w- 150 (no AD scaling)

e- 320 (+360% bonus AD)

=695+500% bonus AD

Now wait, you say: Kha has higher base damage, but Panth has higher scaling. Well, right you are, but then again we just agreed that Kha'Zix will always build more pure damage than Panth (we disagreee on why, but we'll get to that). So, 900-695=205 damage Panth needs to make up in extra scaling from less AD than Kha will have. Your build has Kha at 225 bonus AD from items. A basic AD heavy rune and mastery set will give about 30 more AD, plus 6% bonus AD, so something like 270 bonus AD on Kha. Considering that Panth has almost exactly 100% more bonus AD scaling than Kha that makes the math easy. In order for Panth to have equal full-combo damage to Kha with that build he needs around 170 bonus AD. For a quick and easy example, the highest rated Pantheon guide on lolking has end game Panth at about 185 or so bonus AD, which would put Pantheon's full combo at something like 75-150 more damage than Kha.

Ah ha! you say: I told you Panth has higher burst. Yes, well now on to that whole mess you typed about Panth's e. It takes 0.75 seconds to channel and hits 3 times with the very last hit happening right at the very end. So yes, if Pantheon magically appeared on your adc with no warning whatsoever it would be hard for even the most observant peeler to interrupt. However, 1) there will almost always be significant warning with Pantheon as he has a short-range gap closer and time in flight from the gap closer, 2) there is a lot of aoe cc in the game, and 3) even losing just that final strike would put him below Kha in total damage.

1 is self-explanatory. Kha can get on your carry without being seen from practically the fog of war. Pantheon....can't.

2 is what will kill your e most of the time. janna tornado, lulu ult, thresh flay, etc...will all ruin your day and all very well might accidentally ruin your combo while meant for someone else or even just a nebulous unseen threat.

3: Losing just 1 strike from Panth's e costs him roughly 106+180*1.2 or 322 damage, anywhere from 2 to 4 times the difference in full combo damage we calculated earlier. So even in your miracle scenario in which Panth arrives at his target with no prior warning whatsoever, even responding within a half second or so will reduce his combo by enough to be less than Kha's.

Finally, there's the silly argument you make that Panth builds tankier because he can rather than because he has to. It's a ludicrous argument on the surface because everyone who has played this game at all knows that champions always build damage when they can and build defense when they have to. Darius has insane 1v1 burst damage too if you build him like Kha'Zix. Good luck applying all that damage to anyone meaningful with that build, tho. It's why you build damage when you're ahead to snowball and defense when you're behind to catch up. When you're ahead you have more options because you're naturally tankier (having extra levels on your opponent) so you can afford to build more damage, and the opposite when you're behind. As further proof, champions that don't have to have tankiness to survive, such as adcs who can kite or just generally stay at range, don't build it. Every champ in the game builds for the tankiness he needs, not the tankiness he wants.