Talk:Vayne/@comment-9048637-20150126163208/@comment-9048637-20150128174024

Alright, let's see...

"And if you're having problem VS Vayne (to even have the slightest idea of an OP cry), play Trist or Kog, who can win vs her in lane easily and scale just as well."

Well, two things. Firstly and more importantly, I explicitly said I wasn't calling Vayne OP. Her numbers could have been thoroughly Olaf'd and what I described would still be a problem from a design point of view (if one grants that it is a problem in the first place). Honestly, I barely ever go to bot lane, so I don't have many opportunities to get annoyed by Vayne, particularly seeing as, at least where I play, she's not the most common of picks at the moment. (I realize I did leave a comment in the next thread now complaining about one aspect of Vayne's kit being annoying. Truth be told, I came to this page to make my own comment about silver bolts, but I saw that one and a few memories of playing against Vayne as an ADC surfaced, so I felt I had a relevant experience to share. Notice, however, that there too I explicitly disclaimed the notion that Vayne was OP because of it.) I made this comment merely because I have friends who do play bot lane a lot who do, therefore, talk about Vayne to me some of the time, so I had some thoughts on the matter and decided to share them.

The other point is that a champion having counters is no guarantee of a good balance state. For instance, Morgana is a pretty hard counter to Warwick; Black Shield completely nullifies his ult, meaning a decent Morgana can go a long way towards nullifying Warwick's main purpose post laning phase. Does this mean that 4.20 Warwick wasn't OP as all shit? Hell no, everyone agrees he was, and he was nerfed accordingly. So even if Tristana and Kog'Maw do counter Vayne as hard as you say (which I find a little doubtful anyway, especially since supports often determine the flow of bot lane's laning phase more than the ADCs, but whatever), that would not rule Vayne out from being a problem. But this is all a bit of a tangent, to be honest, since as I've said, I'm not calling Vayne OP, I'm saying I find an aspect of her kit problematic on the theoretical level.

"Don't even complain about BoTRK. Its passive & active are strong, but at the same time, you have to consider that the item is NOT gold efficient. The item also has "weird" build path that leaves you very weak at the point after a Cutlass but not enough gold to finish it yet."

I'm going to assume that this one was directed more at Busecatu than me, since for it to be a valid point against my argument, you'd have to be implicitly denying that BotRK is excellent for Vayne's damage, which seems... patently untrue (after all, why would nearly every Vayne since the item's rework be doing it in that case?). Nevertheless, I do feel the need to chime in on the gold efficiency point: as much recent discussion on this very wiki has demonstrated, gold efficiency is a rather misleading statistic. Very few finished items are "gold efficient" in the sense with which the term is used on the item pages of this wiki, because passives and actives are usually impossible to evaluate in terms of gold value. Does this mean that all these items are poorly designed and not good investments for your gold? Erm, no. The passives and actives in question are usually perfectly strong enough to make the item good. Though as a coda: there was one item that, despite having a reasonably strong passive, also maintained 100% gold efficiency on its stats. That item, you ask? Executioner's Calling. 'Nough said.

"Many ADCs reach their power spike with just 1 item. Corki/Kog with Tri Force, Twitch with BotRK, Draven/Jinx with IE...  There's nothing wrong when the kit synergizes well with 1 item."

And here we get to the interesting point. Okay, well, for starters, note that one of the original thrusts of my argument is that Vayne's power curve is weird for a hyper carry, given that at full build she has hyper carry levels of damage. Therefore, comparing her to the likes of Draven and Corki is a little pointless, since they're snowball carries who are expected to peak early on while falling off, relative to other carries, later on in the game. As for Kog and Jinx (we'll grant for the moment that Jinx is a hyper-carry and so relevant to the discussion): there are two problems with the items listed. Firstly, they are a lot more expensive than BotRK. Secondly, and more pertinently, they don't include life-steal. The problem with BotRK on Vayne isn't just that it grants attack speed, which she scales arguably too hard with; it's that it gives her everything she really needs in one item. Life steal? Check. Attack speed? Check. Fantastic active for duelling? Check. Self-peel? Check. And some AD and yet more %-health too, because why not?

With all that in mind, the most relevant comparison out of the ones you listed is Twitch. Now, Twitch does spike off BotRK, sure. But as hard as Vayne? I'll crunch the numbers if you like to be sure, but my instinct doubts it. Besides, Twitch is not exactly in the healthiest spot himself at the moment. If the best defence Vayne has is a comparison to him, that doesn't really say good things about her.

Besides, all this kind of misses part of my original point, which was that regardless of BotRK being in the game or not, Silver Bolts would still make Vayne scale too hard with a single stat. The problem is that she can unlock hyper-carry levels of damage by just building attack speed. Honestly, if Vayne were melee, she'd probably build like Irelia, who exhibits a pretty similar pattern. To reiterate from my previous post: Vayne gets the same kind of damage just off building, say, BotRK and Phantom Dancer that the likes of Kog'Maw and Tristana have to build an additional IE to unlock. That's IE, the joint most expensive item in the game. In the time they take to build that, Vayne can either build yet more damage, or even tank up. Even if the numbers involved are adjusted to make that balanced, that seems very weird and probably unhealthy as a power curve for a hyper-carry.