Talk:Lissandra/@comment-9008617-20130503213021/@comment-9008617-20130507203110

"She has a range of 550 on her ult (google it). She herself has to be in a prety close position (not in the 725 range you have said many times). Kennen gets free stats to go in as well as MS."

I don't ever recall saying her ult was 725... 725 is the range of her base Q with no additional shatter range. There's no doubt that Kennen is fast and the additional 50 armor/magic resist should help a little, however, Kennen is still quite squishy and with a low max hp for someone who benefits most from running into the enemy team. Keep in mind that the movement speed only lasts about 3 seconds (probably enough to run into the enemy team but not out) and the armor/magic resist buff only lasts 4 seconds. So they aren't exactly "free stats" since they're taken away after 3 and 4 seconds respectively.

"If you can't understand what having no energy issues means, then you don't need to know."

If there was no such thing as energy issues I'm sure Riot should just remove the energy bar altogether and have Kennen and other ninjas play with only CDs. But wait, energy issues still exist. The removal of the 100 energy for the ult definitely helped Kennen's gameplay but it didn't make him free of energy management.

"Now, I said that at level 3, that was Kennen combo. Is your Lissandra at level 6 in that time? Ok, whatever you say. And without sarcasm, if she were to go all in, she would be using 235 mana from her 365 mana pool at that level( not taking passive into account since its not always up, and please don't say something idotic like not going in when its not up). Basically, she would go near OOM at that time from using her normal combo (not taking harassing with her Q, mana regen and items). In short, she uses a hefty amount of mana for doing that much."

I don't see your point. Kennen's lv 3 combo would use up 200 energy out of his 200 energy with a posibility to regain 25 energy if stun activated. It's completely biased on your part that you strip Lissandra of her passive but do not do the same for Kennen. Also there are like 20 items in the shop that restore mana or increase mana regen (i.e. Doran's ring, mana pots) and nothing for energy regen (unless you really want to spend 500g on Twisted Treeline). The point being, energy is capped at start and max mana and mana regen are not. Honestly, what the hell are you debating?

"I lack substance? Or maybe its you... A so-so slow at an okay range at a 6-4 sec CD is not that amazing or proving to be better than an AoE slow which have better range, better slow and the main drawback being a slitghtly higher CD."

"Or maybe it's you." Oh grow up, kid. I have no idea what you're referring to, try using quotes or give some context. If you're referring to Lissandra's Q it's a 2-4 second CD.

"When the 2 moves can do a whole lot more damage than 1 move, yes. Yes, its better. Yes, I know that Nunu's ult is invisible in a bush, doesn't make the slow dissappear..."

Two moves means there's twice the chance to screw up and given Karthus' wall's hefty 18 second CD that means you don't really get a second shot. Lissandra on the other hand can just fire off another Q every 2-4 seconds. We're not even considering how much more mobile Lissandra is compared to glass cannon Karthy.

"You said that Kennen couldn't AA while in E, like he needs to AA to output the majority of his damage. The genius in the making... its amazing....."

You're the one who brought up AD Kennen, "genius". AD Kennen relies on AA just a wee bit, sonny. Weird how your brain works though. You bring up an argument, shoot it down yourself, then pat yourself on the back for a job well done... it's quite amusing on my end. XD

"Valid counter argument? Stating its CD is a counter argument? Nice joke."

If you're referring to Nasus then yes. Nasus' slow is borderline OP many would argue but its CD is 11 seconds and does no damage whereas Lissandra's Q is 2-4 seconds, does damage, and therefore can also be used to clear mobs. Again, I find it ironic that you're trying to say that Lissandra is balanced when you have to bring in the "King of Slow" as you put it and then compare her to the "King of Stuns" but fail to see just how broken that sounds when we realize you haven't started to address the rest of Lissandra's kit or her kit as a whole. Scary stuff, mang.

"If I simplify everything, you glorify her kit. Her Q slow is ONLY 28% but has a low CD. Her W is a short range AoE snare which CAN stop bruisers but can't stop ADC's or ranged stuff. And also not stop spells. Her E is an escape/initiation method. You don't randomly throw it out for damage... And her ult is as is, a stun and AoE slow + damage. Read it and weep."

How is 28% slow such a bad thing? I'm sorry it's not a 95% slow on a 11 second CD like Nasus'. I like how you are so close to solving the problem you posed yourself but you just can't reach it! :)

Yes, her W is good vs melee champs but not so great against ranged. What could you possibly use vs range... Oh, I don't know.. how about her 3 other skills? XD

Like it's been repeatedly slapped across your face, Lissandra's Q slow for 28% and is just 25 range shy of matching the longest ranged AA in the game (Cait's) and that's without factoring in the shattering additional range. Hey, it might not be as strong of a slow as Cait's 50% slow net but it's on a 2-4 second CD and does shotgun AoE damage. If you're only using W to escape from ranged ADC and APC then you're doing it wrong, pro.

I read it but the tears were from laughing so much. It's like you're a horse with blinders on and when you try to debate something you only focus on one aspect of one skill of one situation. Thus why we brought up Nunu's slow (oh haiii, it does damage too) to remind you that Lissandra's Q isn't just about the slow and that Lissandra also has 3 other keys: W, E, R.

"I said that Ezreal's ult was easy to hit 3 tragets, true. I said that W was the best way to reduce the CD of the passive, true. I said Lissandra's passive benefits when hitting every person on the enemy team, false. I said "Liss's passive is most useful with the W (the Q being only able to reduce by 1 sec IF it lands on someone)." to which you said ""Comparing Ezreal's passive which is made for teamfights whereas Liss' passive which is made to help sustain mana... good one!  Her passive boost from W is not enough reason for suiciding bombing...  "" You brought it up, to which I brought in a passive made for teamfights and then made some idiotic mesh telling I was a tard. Rude and incompetent."

Full quote please! "I say that she is a suicide bomber because in order to completely utilise her whole skill set, she needs to be in the middle of the fight...  Liss's passive is most useful with the W (the Q being only able to reduce by 1 sec IF it lands on someone)"  gg. gg.

"And now before I go into the final point which you have been ignoring numerous times because of the fact that you can't change your perspective (and the numbers you brought out isn't that good), here "And anyone who says a 50% attack speed steroid isn't that great on one of the best ranged ADCs in the game is just an idiot." You have been making random indirect comments to me, to which I retorted back. I'm noone to just sit back and ake crap to the face..."

You're noone to just sit back and ake crap to the face? XD

In all seriousness, I'm just bored of arguing with you. It's not even a debate anymore since you don't bring anything worthwhile to the conversation. I'll state numbers and facts and the practical application and you'll state "Nooo, it's not" like some child. Not to mention all the misdirects and hopefully just misunderstandings on your part. I feel like you don't even know what we're debating anymore or what the bigger picture is. Like I said, you seem to look at everything as one aspect of one skill of one scenario.

"Now, to your very first comment which started your whining, you have made the idea that because she has a lot of CC and a flash-like move, she is OP.

'The CC is what she brings, damage is not brought with it. Her base damage and AP ratio is not that good, and as such needs a team to dish out a majority of the damage. And the flash which you so highly praise is a replacement for the fact which you have never brought out, she has a base MS of 325. Out of sheer curiosity, did you take a look at her kit properly?'"

Her base damage and AP scalings are actually pretty decent especially since none of her skills hit multiple times and are therefore not effected by enemy magic resist multiple times nor do they diminish by the number of targets hit. And all her skills do AoE damage so wave clearing/farming isn't a problem just like her damage in teamfights is able to hit multiple targets.

What's this? You looked up her MS and suddenly it's an "Aha!  Did you even look at her kit properly!"

Clap.. clap... clap. You got me. I bet you really must have been congratulating yourself for that find! XD

Guess what? Ezreal also has 325 movement speed and he's considered one of the most mobile champs because he has 11 second 475 range Flash. Guess what Lissandra has? 12 second 1050 ranged Flash.

Sure, Ez can pop off one or two seconds off his Flash CD by spamming Q but most Ezreals tend to be AD (with good reason) whereas most Lissandras tend to be AP (weird, ikr?). Getting CDR bonuses from AP gear also seems a lot easier than getting CDR bonuses from AD gear... weird, right?

So we're looking at Lissandra who can flash over twice the range of the King of Mobility every 7 to 12 seconds. And oh yeah, she can farm a lot better with her flash than Ezreal can with his especially since Ezreal's scales off AP (not useful for an ADC). Cray cray.

Out of sheer curiousity, am I debating with someone above or below the age of 12?