Talk:Talon/@comment-13727494-20130910070913

Regarding the Zed vs Talon discussion that seems to pop up everywhere now. First credentials: I'm a Talon mid main, with 63.6% winratio in Gold 1.

Here's my standard build: Brutalizer/Tiamat (which one first depends on lane, etc.)>Boots of mobility>lw (enemy will usually get some armor at this point)>Ghostblade (lets you lanegank so much more efficiently)>Black Cleaver>Ravenous Hydra>Guardian Angel or Infinity Edge last, depending on if I need more damage or survivability. With a good team the survivability usually shouldn't be needed. I usually start my lane with longsword+2 pots. As you probably figured out, this build is based around two things: catching squishies out of position and killing them instantaneously, and bringing enough armor penetration to deal major damage to whatever crosses your path.

I feel that Talon is as strong as a pick as Zed, if not even stronger. He's certainly stronger than Zed if you are not a very, very good Zed player (much easier to make fatal bad plays on Zed). I feel that Talons damage is leagues ahead of Zed when it comes to burst, so much it's not even funny. And in addition, Talons kit pretty much hardcounters Zed if you manage to stay alive and get some degree of farm until you hit post 6 (that's where you are weakest vs Zed. He still can't all in you, though, as you can just turn on him and kill him if he shadow jumps to you. He should just keep harassing).

Usually when I hit post 6 against a zed and both of us come back with a brutalizer, I can reliably go in and put zed to 30-40%~ hp in a combo without giving zed a chance to retaliate (silence keeps him from ulting your ult). Then i just back off in my ult stealth and resume farming until my dash is up. If he backs, I got the advantage, if he stays, he will probably die.

If zed actually engages you, there are two main situations:

1) he ult engages you: In this case, simply ult his ult, you shut down his damage potential. After a few seconds just E jump to him and burst him down (or back off if you see a jungler coming). A smart Zed would carry a pink ward in this situation, which would make it a lot harder. I've yet to see that happen on a regular basis, though.

2) he shadow jumps to you: simple EWQ him and start all-inning him without your ult (assuming his ult is up). When he ults, simply do what is stated above. You win.

Once you got your tiamat after brutalizer, Zed literally has no chance vs you in lane when it comes to straight trades. All he can hope to do is harass you/farm at a range with shadow+shuriken, and beg his jungler for a gank.

Ok, until this point I've been talking about a Talon vs Zed lane, which I guess isn't the main point of how viable champions are, so lets talk about what they bring to the team.

In my opinion, Talons instantaneous burst is way, way higher than Zed. Zed probably has higher damage over time, but it exposes him to more enemy fire, and takes longer to reach it's potential (at least the 3 seconds on ult). In comparison, with a full build, a Talon can unleash enough damage to almost instantaneously kill even a fully dedicated tank, and usually that's not the target you want to go for. The basic-instant combo is: E-auto-Q-W-R-Tiamat (which breaks R). This isn't the combo optimized around doing the most damage over a long period of time, but over a short one. I've yet to see anyone less than a tank survive this if I'm not behind in terms of gold. If your burst is sufficient, you want to Tiamat before R, so you can use it to get away as well.

Talon also excels at catching enemy carries out of position. Ideally you should have boots of mobility and Ghostblade in your build, which lets you do Ghostblade into your ult, which gives you an insane amount of burst speed. With proper warding this will let you catch their squishies out in a seriously short amount of time (if anyone want to argue the viability of Ghostblade with me, feel free to). Start killing their squishies as they rush to interrupt your dragons, etc. After a while some serious level of paranoia will set into their team, which allows your team to make even greater plays.

What Talon brings to a teamfight, to be precise, is taking out one of their high-valuable target instantly, while throwing out lots of AoE damage on their team in general in addition. He is less flexible than Zed, but what he does, he does a lot better. It's also easier to get to their target than on Zed, unless you go all-in with him (shadow-dash+maybe flash+ult). Talons ult is also a lot more reusable, with barely a 35 second cd on level 16 with 30% cdr (ghostblade+cleaver+elixir). If you got blue, even better. This lets you pick off someone out of position, and have the ult ready again for the teamfight before they respawn (lategame). While Zed brings a champion that is versatile and can almost go wherever he pleases (top, mid, jungle, I could even see him work as a kinda support bot), Talon is pretty confined as a mid choice (can go top, but not reliably. I guess I could see some kind of ghetto-jungle build as well, but wouldn't be efficient), but as mentioned he does a damn good job of it. And going back to my AoE point: You bring a ton of it. Zeds AoE is nothing in comparison. I'd say it almost rivals brand if you can get it off correctly. I've had plenty of instantaneous aces where the enemy team stacks up when they believe I'm not close-by.

tl;dr Talon brings:

1) more on-demand burst

2) faster reset of his full combo (ult)

3) is easier to get in and get out with (i.e. surviving) while dealing most of your damage (with Zed, you are forced to commit your W as well if you want to go actual all-in. You can W away before your ult then go in, but if you're cc'd you're still screwed as your w disappears)

4) superior pre-engage mobility (catching people)

5) less in-combat mobility

6) less versatility

7) probably less sustained damage over time (but that's what your ad carries are for).