Talk:Fiora/@comment-4131177-20130224114757/@comment-4094339-20130306174051

Do you see what you are doing here? You are trying to think of more and more specific situations to justify maxing W, when its obvious that for most general situations, maxing Q is preferable.

Lets agree that maxing Q is always better for short burst, especially without R. But you contend that its easily possible for a gank to last long enough to hit an enemy 7+ times with auto-attacks. However if engagements lasted that long, Q's cooldown would probably be close to up by then already if you maxed it second. So maxing W only slightly outdamages maxing Q for middle length of time ganks but not short or long length of time ganks. This is a very narrow window of time in which W is better.

Nor does it answer my previous points that 7 auto-attacks are unrealistic if the enemy has cc, flash or some kind of escape move. Burst and mobility are always going to be more important for ganking than sustained damage.

"I think this discussion does not make any sense since there are too many possible and impossible situations, so of course either of our maxing preferences could benefit more than the other in one of those situations. "

No it does not have too many situations. Either there are more situations where one can get numerous auto-attacks off, or there are more situations where you can only get a few. Realistically, you won't get 7+ auto-attacks off and if you disagree then I can only tell you that most players would disagree with you. Considering enemy cc, flash, the length of the lanes, and tower range, an average of 7+ auto-attacks is silly. Additionally if you got 7 auto-attacks off on most champions, they are already dead or close to dead unless they are a tank. Mind you, 7+ auto-attacks is when maxing W first only slightly outdamages Q first. Is it really worth risking losing out on reliably burst damage just so you might be able to deal some more auto-attack damage after 7 hits? Most would agree that is not worth it.  "When they autoattack you, and you are not able to successfully use your Riposte, you are doing it wrong. This defensive move is just like a skillshot. You need to predict and use accordingly. It's like coming with the Argument "Dont max Q on Xerath first because you can not be sure that it will hit the enemy". In most ganking situations i had till now, i either got retaliation or i had to chase. Retaliation makes it possible to take advantage of W proc, and chase and the resulting AAs make more use of W's active. "

I doubt you always succeed in timing W correctly, I don't, humans make mistakes, its just a question of probability. The probability of hitting Q is very high, its a targeted point and click skill. The probability of hitting W in time to parry their auto-attack if they don't bait you, use a skill, or you don't mess up is much much lower than Q. This point segues well into addressing your next argument.

" So, when seeing it from a jungle gank perspective it is even less likely that you do not use one Q for gapclosing. It is fun how you say in the first paragraph "There is no way the enemy is pushed that far unless he's stupid", but now you are taking exactly that situation and act as if it was an every-day situation in order to defend that you will always hit bot of your Qs. However, i stick to what you said in the first paragraph: Good players are not that stupid, so you will never get out one of your Q's on champions. Some maths so you dont have to make them (no ult, no W proc) 90 (base dmg lunge lvl 3) + 18 (1,2% bonus AD ratio) + 15 (Ad from 1 AA) = 123 40 (base dmg lunge lvl 1) + 30 (1,2% bonus AD ratio) + 25 (Ad from 1 AA) = 95 Get out 3 Autoattacks with E and there you go. Seems legit to me. With Ult up, it would hit even harder. "

The probability of hitting both Q's is relatively high, get in 600 range, point and click. I discussed this before in the previous post. Hide in the lane bush when your laner has pushed beyond line of sight, most laners don't ward lane bushes. If you don't know what I'm talking about then here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnMEld7gk9U

Or just run in from the river bush if they aren't warded or overextended. Frankly I think this discussion is silly, if you don't think a 600 range gapcloser is sufficient for ganking and you always have to double Q to gank an opponent then I think you aren't ganking correctly. Xin Zhao's gapcloser is only 600 range too, and he's one of the easiest gankers in the game. Maokai's is only 650 range. Your quoting of me is not true for both situations. I was talking about getting multiple auto-attacks off is improbable due to the length of the lane. One doesn't have to be overextended to be in Q's range, the enemy could be in the middle of the lane. However that doesn't hold true for getting multiple auto-attacks, a flash and several steps from the middle of the lane puts the enemy within their tower's range. The probability of hitting both Q's is obviously much higher than getting multiple auto-attacks off, it takes less time, has a higher range and doesn't require much skill.  "Yes, ganks don't last long, but E says still high. During E duration, getting out 3-4 AAs (especially with the MS buff) is not that much of a deal. If you can't get those out, maxing Q is probably the better option, but well, i get them out most of the time, and since you said you are a better player than me i wonder why you don't then. Everything is situational. That's why you have to pick the most likely situations, and build into that direction. Fiora is very straight forward. There are champions out there who have room for situational skilling, but not fiora. I love playing her, she is an awesome champ, but i won't give her more depth than she has."

If you still can't see that your initial statement of maxing W first is best without exceptions is wrong then you are hopeless. If you think the most likely situation is that Fiora will get 7+ autoattacks off in a normal gank then I and most other players would say you are wrong. A realistic combination of flash, enemy cc and escapes, no cc from Fiora, and the length of the lane all show this is usually false. And even if you got multiple AAs out, it would only start outdamage Q first after the 7-10ths auto-attack until Q came back from cooldown. If you continue to post on the wiki that there is only one choice and it is absolute then this entire discussion was for nothing except for me to link back to this thread to show people that your conclusions are not correct.  "I still think going on with this discussion is pointless though. You choose if you still want to respond. I still would like to spectate a game of laning fiora, just so i can maybe learn it myself and see how Q works in lane, so i could better understand your points. Mind if i do? When are your online times? No, i am not planning to troll you or pick a fight. I just want to see how it works."

Fine, end it here. I'm on the NA server and don't get online at regular intervals so I doubt we'll be online at the same time. Add me if you'd like though. A better player to follow would be "the1banana" who pretty much plays the same style as I do but at a higher elo, here's his guide, he occasionally streams: http://www.lolking.net/guides/37526