Talk:Garen/@comment-77.98.249.112-20121019015745/@comment-46.7.207.128-20121020133007

I love Garen as much as the next power on here, but let us be realistic. While Demacian Justice has numerous features which make it shine more than Noxian Guillotine in certain areas, regardless what way you cut it, for RAW KILLING power, Noxian Guillotine is far superior. To answer the first question, no, there isn't much to justify it, but unlike others who made a song and dance over the increased CD, honestly it doesn't make THAT much of a difference to be game changing. When you put it like 3 minutes and 80 seconds, yes, that is rather large. But it was only increased by an extra 20 seconds.

However, to add my 2 cents and something which has not been mentioned is thus:

1) Demacian Justice does not refresh on a kill. Ok, sounds bad, especially how Darius has gained his infamous title Dunkmaster. However, I never realized or believed it myself till I spectated a game with a fed Darius, but Noxian Guillotine's ability (And the Darius players for that matter) to KS like CRAZY during team fights does a lot to starve your allies of precious kills and gold. While initially yes this can give a strong advantage to Darius' team, Darius himself fed is surprisingly fragile, and all of the teams gold in one person makes for a very obvious target. That and lacking much of Garen's innate tankiness, Darius falls very quickly. Counting this and the fact your allies are underequipped can lead to a very surprising and painful loss for your team.

2) Many people state Demacian Justice is by and large inferior to the infamous NG, not just for lack of CD refresh, but also damage. Some have proposed to make Demacian Justice true damage in order to compete. First I would like to ask any of you to put in the numbers for Demacian Justice' damage BEFORE MR applies on 2500 hp target or 3k hp target. Come back here when you have done so.

Also, unlike Darius' ult which is used as a means of simply dishing out damage (Assuming the Darius is trying to eliminate a target quickly rather than just to refresh), consider that Garen's ult is actually a "execute" in every sense. Rather than looking at raw damage, Garen's ult will amost always gaurantee a kill once a certain % threshold of the enemies hp is reached. So an Ashe who has reached 15% of her hp vs say a Cho'goth who has reached 15% of his hp, the Ashe will take less damage when compared to the Cho, but both will drop dead once Garen's ult has struck.

Finally, while I can assure you its raw damage may not be as good in comparison to Darius' Ult, there are a few occassions where its damage can surpass that of the Noxian counterpart. I hit a Vlad with over 3k hp (And had failed to stack MR, his was 30) for over 1000 damage. Similarly I hit an enemy Darius for 810 damage with 80 MR. Consider the results if you took away that small barrier stopping Demacian Justice actually doing the damage a twenty foot space sword would actually do, then I would say Garen's LACK of CD refresher would be a very minor compenator for a literal "Secured Kill".

3. I would wager most of us Garen players have dabbled with the Noxian rival ourselves out of curiosity. While this is not necessarily anything to do with in-game stats, I would ask one simple question: Which ability feels more fun to use? I can gaurantee you 90% would agree Demacian Justice :P