Talk:Riven/@comment-8733289-20131224042732/@comment-9008617-20140107185647

@CliffShadow:

Oh my god... it's like the same points over and over again. Hell, you're even contradicting yourself. -_-"!!!

Lee Sin's shield has no "indirect stats" unless he uses the energy for the SECOND activation which leaves him with 120/200 energy. You even say, "But late game, resources aren't a problem (except for energy suers)".

SPOILER ALERT:  Lee Sin is an "energy suers"!

Riven's shield doesn't just scale "fairly". It scales to her 100% bonus AD whereas Lee Sin will (almost) NEVER make use of his shield's AP scaling.

In order to ward jump, Lee Sin requires wards (and energy). Trinkets have a 2 minute CD and wards you buy take up an inventory spot and gold. Riven's E requires NOTHING. Riven doesn't need a god damn ally minion, champion, or ward if she wants to reach you. Riven goes where Riven pleases.

As calculated before, Riven's shield with a modest 200'ish bonus AD will grant a 400'ish shield. Lee Sin's shield grants only 200 and in order to make up for that 200 difference Lee Sin at max rank would need to do 800 damage (since 25% of 800 is 200).

The mechanic behind the shield is completely different too. Karthus ult coming down? Riven shields and blocks 400 damage. Lee Sin shields and only blocks 200.

"Can also be used in lane to get into the opponent's face when he is lasthitting and guarantee a Q hit"

Also I fail to see your logic that using Lee Sin's shield guarantees a Q hit.

I know it was over 40% CDR, that's why I said "maxed CDR".

Frozen Heart I know there's a lot of debate over the wasted 400 mana but the 95 armor and it's passive ability against an AD AA/AS-dependent team is still worth it in my opinion but I'll leave it at that.

"And I already said like 2 times why I don't like SV or Lucidity boots on her, can you please not ignore things when you please?"

And yes, I did read why you didn't like SV and other CDR items besides BC.  It went a little something like:

"Personal prefernce for the CDR point, again, I prefer CC reduction since CC becomes a greater threat to a riven, if you get bursted before you can even use the shield and its useless IMO."

"In most cases, I go for only Black Cleaver fro the ablove list as it gives a good amount of stats which I feel are important."

Lucidity you claim is bad because you give up Merc Treads which is arguably a matter of opinion. If there's a lot of hard CCs then I could see why you would want to run Mercs but if it's only soft CCs then the CDR is much more useful since slows don't actually affect Riven's Q or E.

Also when you run the numbers, 15% CDR on 6 seconds for the shield means it's up 0.90 seconds faster.

30% tenacity on the longest non-ult stun in the game (Veigar's) is 0.75 seconds saved off his 2.5 second stun. 0.90 seconds > 0.75 seconds but again, it's a matter of opinion and circumstances. Cleanse also makes up for tenacity but afaik there's no summoner spell to reduce CD.

But you basically give no reasons as to why SV is bad. SV is amazing against any AP-heavy teams as it gives a large chunk of health, health regen, 20% CDR (currently), and THE most magic resist on one item. It's probably the reason why it's getting nerfed in PBE.

But even without SV, building Lucidity and BC gives you 25% CDR and you can pick up another 5% from Masteries for 30% easily.

"._. I didn't compare it to blue ezreal, I just used 2 items which are effective on him since they proc off of his Q's. Blue ezreal would mean even spirit of the elder lizard which became more of a jungle item with the changes. And even and Ezreal built with Iceborn and Muramana can deal a lot of damage as well as keep himself safe (more lategame-ish)."

Yes the 2 items being Muramana and Ice Gauntlet which both mean a really weak early-mid game. Meanwhile your rival ADC is building AD, AS, and crits with their gold (which they'll have more of because they're dominating early and mid game). Honestly, at that point you might as well finish the Blue Ezreal build.

"Really, arguing about something like mana sustain.... he gets mana sustain as well as mana from the 2 items I mentioned before. In any fight, he'd have enough mana to sustain himself."

The point is that Ezreal and other champs who aren't resourceless like Riven need to manage their mana/energy. You took it to the extreme by building a Blue Ezreal and telling us, "See, Ezreal's mana is fine". It's a joke. You simply can't compare resourceless champs to champs that have a finite resource bar. You're not going to win this argument with anyone ever.

"Riven's E is not an engage, it crosses 325 units and shields herself. Its not gonna start a fight from just that. It would require a flash-E-W to be able to engage with Riven (needs proper timing in order to do that and also to find the opportunity)." Yeah, Flash is there for a reason. Feel free to use it to engage and not just as an escape. And yes, finding an opportunity to engage is not unique to Riven. -_-" '''"I had said the things relating to wukong because U N Ovvrn had said that wukong would never be able to outdamage a riven. Her shield would be able to mitigate SOME of the incoming damage. CC can't stop wukong's ult, it'll still continue so while she is starting her burst, she'd be close to death." My bad on the CC'ing Wu's ult.  I forgot how stupid his ult is.  In any case, you're free to exhaust him, flash out, or E out.  Wu's ult is pretty scary but at 200 base + 120% AD for 4 seconds it would be interesting to see who out damages who.  Riven's ult gives her 20% more AD and lasts 15 seconds.  And in the time it takes Wu to E-Q-R her, Riven should be able to pull up her shield at least twice giving her at least 800 bonus health.  And as soon as Wu's ult is down, Riven can hard AoE CC Wu all day long which can be used to counter his decoy and Riven will block 400 dmg every 6 seconds (or less). "Stating a fact not known to many is being informative, and was a pretty dumb thing to address." That's you assuming that not a lot of people knew that Wu is bursty...   "Pretty bad Tl;dr. I have thrown numerous points which you completely ignore and say you "debunked" it. You said riven's shield was OP because it scaled with AD, failed to tell why lee's shield was not OP since even that scales. ''' Yeah... Lee Sin's scales off AP which I've addressed like 3 times now. If you're talking about the LS/SV increasing with skill rank I've already given you the benefit of the doubt and considered it at max rank (25%) this entire conversation. "Didn;t mention a blue ezreal as well, so a misconception and bias on your part." Rrright, muramana and ice fist Ezreal isn't limiting at all. Not to mention you've been trying to counter both the spammability of Ezreal on i) mana vs resourceless front and ii) the CD for which you brought up Blue Ezreal items. "Finally, lack of understanding in various kits was seen in your points, i've made my points clear enough to understand but you fail to try to understan it yourself and say it is coherent. Anywho, this is gonna be my last comment here because i'm busy and can't spend a long time in trying to open your eyes to what you blind youself to." lol... lack of understanding? Not only me but like 3 other people here have been shutting you down repeatedly. What do I lack understanding of? I've literally taken your idiotic "points" about Janna's shield and Lee Sin's shield and disseminated them from practical use and different game mechanics and made the comparisons to Riven's shield. Same with the spammability of Ezreal and his mana-issues (which is why alot of pros run Mana Regen runes on him) versus Riven's resourceless (how did you think you were going to win this argument btw?  Convince us that mana doesn't exist?  That the blue bar's just down there for decoration for 95% of champs?). Go pull your Leyrann and exit stage left. You're clearly too good for this game and clearly too good to provide actual valid points or defend them. What have you done besides repeat th