Talk:Riven/@comment-4834593-20131228142718/@comment-9008617-20140107171632

@Leyrann:

"Even if you dodge that Q, good luck getting to her without wasting all your Q's and getting snared. There are some things that make this really hard:

''1. Karma is ranged. If she knows what she's doing, you won't ever be closer than the distance of two dashes. If she instantly walks away, it might even be three dashes.''

''2. Karma has a slow/poke tool. If she mantra's it, not dodging it hurts a lot. That means you have to use a dash for that.''

''3. Karma has a snare. It's delayed, but it's coming anyways if you dont dash away. And if it comes she gets a free RQ on you.''

''4. Karma has a 60% speedup (if I'm not mixing up the numbers). That makes her, considering the short intervals between Rivens dashes, as fast as Riven for one or two seconds. So, that's two dashes mo... Oh wait, Riven doesn't have any more dashes. Well, bad luck then. Not gonna catch up to Karma without flash."''

Riven has 3 Q's (260 x 3 = 780) on a 13 sec CD and E (325) on a 6 sec CD for a total gap closer of 1105 (1505 with flash) which is unaffected by slows. It's the same reason why Nasus' 95% movement speed slow is laughed at by Rivens around the world. What's the slow on Karma's Q again? 25%?

Karma's Q (which is her longest range skill) is 950 with 250 AoE with ult. (950 < 1105)

Riven's CDs are also typically LOWER than Karma's especially in the early levels and Karma's passive requires her to land attacks on enemy champs.

Karma has 2 soft CCs (one AoE, one single target) and one of which is delayed by 2 seconds. Riven has 2 hard AoE CCs.

As others have said, Karma's 6 is much less impactful and Riven scales incredibly hard into late game. Her ult also boosts the AoE effect of her CCs which I'm sure a Riven pro like you would know.

Honestly, you make it sound like Karma is unkillable in lane. Maybe for once you might actually have to use Riven's mobility creatively rather than just directly diving/bursting/Riven carried. If you build Tenacity, the root will only last 1.3 seconds and its on CD for the next 12 seconds barring passive. Meanwhile, Riven's Q is on CD for 13 seconds and E is on CD for half that at 6 seconds.

Hard match up? Sure, but I imagine most ranged champions having an advantage over most melee champions early game anyways. I would be wary of calling Karma a counter however.