Talk:Draven/@comment-33172118-20171021192537/@comment-4091261-20171025180147

I think the duel between and  is pretty even in general. They both deal serious damage and their values can easily butt heads with each other.
 * having stupendous lifesteal synergy and large potential to quickly get fed.
 * having wide zone control and larger synergy.

There is a skew that works towards favor. That being that a good support is all that needs to become strong. While any other champion, including, needs a good jungler to become strong. Reason being that a good support for can overcome the issues of a good counter support to him.

is gimped in the fact that she does need to stack her feathers, so its harder for her to recover from getting dogpiled than --especially since he has the superior lifesteal synergy. While both of their kiting is formidable, the nature of instantaneous burst and lack of positioning requirement makes it easier for him to chase kills than, which in turn makes it easier for him to react to a support engage. This means that getting dogpiled is fairly frequent when laning against.

Although can recover much better than the rest due to that, it does mean that more resources are required to sufficiently deal with  when his support is threatening.

There really isn't any individual champion that can be considered a counter since the mass power of offers life threatening kiting capability right from early game. Mainly it's a macromanaging effort of shutting him down through organized early ganks, before he gets the / lead. The thing about is that when you cut him down before he can do anything useful, he doesn't get back up. The troublesome part is the condition of being before he does anything useful.

Of course this is all irrelevant if you are up against a bad. Which you can spot by poor attention to skillshots, late reactions to engagements, poking as if he was actually playing, etc. The chances of seeing a bad is not rare. It's quite easy for inexperienced players to go to the extremes of aggression or pacifism with the large risk/reward has. However, going up against a player that achieves that happy medium will be fairly difficult to deal with.