Board Thread:Wiki discussions and announcements/@comment-4698489-20150808195101/@comment-1330314-20150813220329

Phoenix169 wrote: There are no conflicts between the two statements you quoted. The clause "without taking up additional space" is merely describing FlipText as being able to add alternate information to existing information without taking up more space, which is a fact, not an opinion.

I never said it wasn't a fact, but you're stating that it's what you consider to be its purpose, which is where the contradiction lies. I, too, think that the purpose of FlipText is to save space, among other things, and you don't need to contradict me on this simply for the sake of being contrarian.

Phoenix169 wrote: Yes, if an ability were to change from non-derivative to derivative, it would be non-essential. Essential is just a synonym I'm using for non-derivative to make talking about it easier.

Alright, but "non-derived" and "essential" carry very different connotations, which I think you were deliberately playing around. You're also not answering the question: what makes derived and non-derived values so special that we have to make a distinction? What is the cost to putting non-derived information within a FlipText template, relative to adding derived information? Emptylord, for example, thinks the distinction should be based on whether or not the value can be influenced by players (see his post in this thread), which is another point of disagreement: what makes your system better than his?

Phoenix169 wrote: I edited the template documentation at the same time as I edited Warwick's page since I saw enough support to update the standard for that specific case. At the same time, I made note of both edits in this thread. Please do not (perniciously?) suggest that I tried to create a "free pass" since I have only referenced the other guidelines in my arguments.

The fact remains that you modified a document you have used, and are still using, to support your claims, on which your modifications are based. That is not an honest thing to do.

Phoenix169 wrote: I continue to reference the documentation because it is the only written standard which seems to exist governing the usage of FlipText on this wiki. If I've missed something here, I'm quite sorry, but if that were the case you should've linked to the real standards much earlier. But my understanding is that the documentation is the only official standard we have, and it is your solo edits that are based on a different standard that only you are privy to.

It is true that there is a lack of clarity to the standards we use, and that's partly my fault. The documentation is technically the "official" standard, but it's also moot, since it was incorrect from the get-go (the purpose of its conception was to save space on non-linear scaling lists) and has never applied to its use in the mainspace. The standards I used were implicit to the format of the most recent champion articles (e.g., , , etc.), and while I expanded them to all champion articles, I also failed to update the documentation or guidelines to reflect their proper usage.

To make things clear now, my usage of FlipText is pretty simple: if there are two values on a same effect that are related, such as minimum or maximum/total values, or single-target damage and multi-target damage, or normal vs. amplified/modified damage, I bundle them under a single FlipText template. If there is an odd number of values that are all related, I leave out the base value (e.g. minimum/standard damage) on its own and bundle up the derived values. FlipText is also used in ability descriptions for decimal-point stat ratios, with the "per 1% stat" being the default text 1 value. The advantage to this, in my opinion, is that it makes for extremely simple guidelines ("just pair up related values") and saves up the best amount of space, while also tying together intimately related values instead of spreading them out.

In my opinion, there are two real issues to FlipText, though they're problems with the template itself and not its usage: the main problem is that it's not 100% intuitive, as some users haven't figured out how to use it on their first try, and the other issue, which ties into it, is that it's not always quick enough to provide necessary information, e.g. when looking for a specific value in-game while alt-tabbing. I think there is definitely progress to be made on the template, and as mentioned before it would be worth trying to make it flip on-hover, rather than on-click, which would bypass the need for an informative tooltip and instead allow both new users to figure out its workings pretty quickly, and more experienced users to instantly flip to the exact value they need with minimal effort. In the case of Hungering Strike, for example, checking either value would be as quick as having them side-by-side, while still conserving space.