Talk:Vel'Koz/@comment-9048637-20151108223258/@comment-9008617-20151122025618

" Congratulations, you just defined what an opportunity cost is. Try looking up terms like this before you decide you're going to be a snide jerk" 

I clearly had to define it for you since you were calling those "free" stats when they weren't.

Congrats..?

'" That's not something you can really make a blanket statement about. For instance, on Vel'Koz, who's AP scalings are meh, CDR (and, in fairness, Mpen) are worth more than raw AP compared with someone like, say, Annie. Conversely, Annie doesn't care much about CDR, while she does care an awful lot about AP and pen." '

Finish reading the sentence. I said,  "Flat AP or MPEN typically being worth more than scaling CDR until a certain point".

Your scaling CDR runes do nothing for you OR your adc in the early game. They're completely selfish runes that require someone carrying you to level 18. A player with equal skill and early game runes should win early game and snowball their bot. Flat AP quints, like I said, are one of the most efficient early runes. That is why they're run by pretty much every AP mid.

" Okay? I never brought up gold efficiency once. In fact, I agree with you that it's a terrible metric in most situations. So while you felt the need to throw that at me, I'm a bit confused. If anything, you're the one who's bringing the notional gold value of runes into it."

You... brought.. up... gold... value... for .. runes...

Face meet palm.

You said: "  When I talked about "free" stats, I meant "free" purely in the sense of "free in terms of gold".  "

 " You're making a lot of meat out of a point that was mostly tangential to what I was arguing. But hey, I'll bite. You do still have base damages. They're quite good. I'd argue that CDR to leverage this base damage is more important than AP. Pen is even better, but the most pen I ever suggested sacrificing was 2 from a quint. I'm not saying suggesting you sacrifice Sorcs or Liandry's, or any of your reds. " 

Then lets do the math. At level one, Velkoz's Q does 80 + 60% AP.

So with your scaling CDR runes, Velkoz will do 80 dmg.

With flat AP quints, Velkoz will do 80 dmg + flat ap from quints.

Oh darnnn!

You're completely missing the point. I've already addressed in my second reply to you where I said, ''" I suppose in a perfect world if you were allowed to hit all your spells as soon as they came off CD without being mana gated then CDR would make the most sense." ''

That's in a perfect world where you survived to 18 and everyone's full build and the enemy will just stand still for you while you keep spamming spells as soon as they come off cooldown. Then we could calculate Velkoz's "dps" and CDR would function similar to Attack Speed on Marksmen.

Lastly, didn't say this in the last post but you should almost never run magic pen quints because they're very stat/rune inefficient. MPen Quints give 2 MPen each. AP Quints give 5 AP each.

Velkoz Q at level one with AP Quints vs no MR runes does: (80 + 0.6 (15 AP )) 100/130 = 77 dmg

Velkoz Q at level one with Mpen Quints vs no MR runes does: (80) 100/124 = 65 dmg

Velkoz Q at level one with AP Quints vs 9 MR glyphs does:   (80 + 0.6 (15 AP )) 100/139 = 64 dmg

Velkoz Q at level one with Mpen Quints vs 9 MR glyphs does:  (80) 100/133 = 60 dmg

Again, MPEN will be worth more with the more AP you have but since you have no AP at the start you're not going to do more damage with MPEN as you would have with AP. That's a choice. A selfish choice but a choice none the less.

 " I know? I never suggested Athene's was better than Morello's on Vel, unless you really want the MR for laning. I was just recognizing it as a possibility that some people do opt for, and noting that Morello's does leave the possibility of OOMing yourself open (though not by much, hence my comment about extended sieges), while Athene's doesn't. " 

You stated, "  I've never found Vel'Koz to have significant mana problems.  Yes, it's possible to OOM yourself if you've gone Morello's over Athene's and you're in a very extended siege. But that's a very edge case, in my experience. "

Geez. Do you even read what you post? You're saying Velkoz doesn't have mana problems but he does go out of mana if you play him with the most popular item that pros use on him.

 " My 'silly way of looking at it' is not something I invented on the spot, it's a logic that's well recognized among theory crafters. " 

I don't care if you invented it on the spot or not - it's a dumb argument. The final result is still the exact same amount of CDR. By you changing the frame of reference, you're trying to make your case more appealing when it's still the same shit at the end of the day.

I could do the opposite and say something like, "After buying your amplifying tome, you've increased your AP from 0 to 20! That's an infinite increase. Buying anymore AP would not be efficient because you cannot achieve the same increase."

If every 10% CDR reduced the CD by 1 second then 20% CDR will reduce it by 2 seconds. Just because you change the frame of reference from the total cooldown to the reduced cooldown value it doesn't change how much the CDR value reduces.

" ' You accuse me of picking at straws to make an argument; I suppose I should just opt for your strategy and skip the argument in favour of empty insults interspersed with repeating my previous points with no change." '

What argument did I skip? I'll gladly go back and give you a butt spanking if you'll only direct me. ;)

' " Look, think of it this way: if it were possible to get up to 100% CDR in League, the final 10% would bring you down from having 'a cooldown' to 'no cooldown', which should be self-evidently more worth it even though it's the same flat amount the first 10% shaved off. Suddenly, your ability spam is limited only by your cast times. Compare this to that first 10%, which lets you use your abilities... a little more frequently. That's why CDR scales cumulatively." '

Congrats! You made up an extreme case that doesn't exist in the game to try to prove your point.

' " Also, as I tried to point out before, your argument against CDR here could easily be extended to all CDR, which as far as I know you're not arguing against, for all that it sometimes seems that way. That 1 second you're rubbishing is exactly what that first 10% of CDR you're getting is shaving off. So should you never get CDR? By your logic here, no." '

You know about fallacies right?

 " Now you're trying too hard to present strawmen. 

' Of course I realize that. What I'm saying is that the sacrifices you make are worth it because max CDR is very valuable on Vel'Koz. " '

What strawman? This entire thread was about how to achieve the best balance of CDR in your build as Velkoz...

You've done nothing but been an egomaniacal prick. Stop thinking with your pride and think about what exactly did you add to this conversation besides extreme fallacies and being passive-aggressive with your responses. My whole point has been about what you were going to sacrfice in order to reach max CDR and if it was going to be worth it.

From the sounds of it you wanted to run 9 scaling CDR blues for 15% CDR and 1 scaling CDR quint for 5% CDR for a total of 20% CDR from runes. My point was that running so many scaling runes makes you much weaker early game whether you play mid velkoz or support.

Why don't you just post your typical full build and runes? Or your account name with your velkoz match history.

Anyways, you really do have a knack for throwing around words or concepts you seem to think are too big for others to understand but you're really at best doing a disservice to yourself and at worst coming off as a moron.

In any case, I've wasted enough time on this thread. If you looked back, all I really wanted to do was figure out what everyone thought of the mana situation. ^^

You can reply to this or not. I really don't care. I don't know about you but I've already hit high plat and low diamond this season playing as a Velkoz main. I'm moving on.