Talk:Graves/@comment-25855686-20151108040014/@comment-5157201-20151108052151

Because top lane you go up against armor tanks and bruisers that you cannot duel. If you want high numbers, Renekton can do 225% Total AD + 260% Bonus AD with just 1 fury empowered combo. In turn, for Graves to do the same damage, He needs to land all 8 pellets with 2 AAs. This isn't too hard (though renekton's combo is still easier) but in order to be in the range to do so, you lose out on your Q's Return damage. With your ammo gone - Renekton is just gonna hammer your head in while you reload.

And even if you do manage to get an early kill, Graves has no armor pen - thus armor stacking is an excellent counter. Let's also not forget he has poor base stats and lack sustain.

This isn't to say he sucks totally, but against certain matchups (mostly tanks/bruiser tanks with sustain) he's not going to be able to force them out of lane or outdamage them past early game. I haven't played against bursty champs like Riven, but I assume with his high burst amount he can kill them before theu kill him.