Talk:Hecarim/@comment-173.209.168.28-20120424170208/@comment-62.150.224.55-20120424224116

Good super-long post there, but you're kinda giving him too much credit.

His initial clear is not that fast compared to current fotm junglers (Mundo, Lee, Shyvanna, Maokai, Noct, and Riven are faster just off the top of my head). He does no damage to camps early (his Q just sucks in the jungle until rank 3 or so. seriously 25 damage wtf) and if you lvl W first he does no damage in ganks and he STILL lacks the Q damage to make full use of the sustain.

His pre-6 ganks require him to get behind the enemy and push them into his team; not exactly fool-proof. Though his lvl 6 ganks are pretty good assuming he lands his ult behind the enemy.

Outside the early game, he does no damage without building a Sheen, and he's very squishy if he doesn't build early defense. So you're left with a choice which will determine the rest of your game: "Do I build tanky and do no damage, or do I build Sheen first and explode?"

All this, of course, is assuming you are playing a game where nobody is fed up the ass. If you manage to get a few kills early, then by all means go Sheen. But if you get behind (which if you're up against good opponents, you probably will), then you're stuck going the tanky route.

Honestly he seems kinda underpowered right now. His passive is weak and the 50% off damage on his Q makes it a horrible move (it has bad scaling too). Stonewall said it best by calling him "average"; which is what he is. The concept behind him was nice and i was very excited for his release, but the numbers are a bit off. Right now there's just too many junglers that out-do him in every aspect (don't know much about his solo top, but he seems pretty meh there too at first glance).

As for OP's initial question:

If you're in the position where the enemy laner and the enemy jungler (doesn't matter who as long as they can take a hit or 2 from tower) are ready to dive you 15 minutes into the game, then you either pull off a crazy pro play and get a double kill (hard to do without summoners and if they have theirs), hope they fuck up, or run like hell (you're Riven so that's not too hard). If you stick around tower 9/10 times it'll result in a kill for the enemy team. If it rsults in the loss of a tower, then so be it; better than a tower AND a kill.