Talk:Riven/@comment-33536623-20140127122040/@comment-9008617-20140131223914

'''"Well, that 1.5 sec CC is still a strong part of Garen which can cripple AD casters and even you agree that its a counter, though less significant." - Cliff'''

I agree that silence is a counter to casters. I'd be stupid not to.

However, I don't agree that a 1.5 sec silence is anywhere remotely as impactful as a nearly 3 second silence. Given that Riven isn't just an AD Caster and her passive relies on AA'ing which isn't stopped by silence.

'''"My comment in regards to items and stats was because the OP was very vague in what he asked for counters for. No need to "flame" me for that." - Cliff'''

Trust me when I say that wasn't a "flame". But it was really kind of common sense. Otherwise all "counter" threads would consist of Armor or MR.

'''"Hmmm, so your flame is because of my apparent b.s posting. That's your problem in looking at my posts as b.s. I had stated valid points but you ignore it and take it as flame towards you and now exaggerate it to make yourself look like a victim." - Cliff'''

Your posts have had a history of being less than noteworthy. Half the time you're accusing me of ignoring you even when I've gone out of my way and much further than the average poster would go in dissecting your points. I told you before and I'll tell you again. You're projecting your flaws onto me and at the very least it's considered hypocrisy.

'"So if theorycrafting were to be perfect, you'd have to include every'' variable in the game, which isn't done in these calculations. So basically, you've been bringing incomplete theorycrating into the discussion and expecting it to explain everything." - Cliff'''

Yes, in theory everything could be broken down. Even the minions have a projected path, neutrals have certain spawn times, etc.

However, given the specific lane match up, we're able to analyze the key strengths and weaknesses between 2 given champions. Besides their base stats and skills, we also know that these champs typically start with (i.e. most Garens and Rivens won't be running AP/sec runes or Doran ring starts) and what would be optimal buys to counter each other in lane with respect to their game.

Honestly, this is why I grow tire of "debating" you if we can call it that. It feels like the old Creationist/Intelligent Design "theorists" who continue to throw mud at the theory of evolution because it's "just a theory". I can already see that's were you want to take this.

Because theorycrafting/math is incomplete therefore listen to our anecdotal evidence as the one truth!

'''"And everything I said can be accounted for, but gives soooo many more situations." - Cliff'''

I'm not even sure what you're referring to here. What exactly did you say that was accountable and applies to so many situations again?

'''"Anecdotal evidence gives 1 situation which is true and does account for the variables (minion damage, masteries and runes)." - Cliff'''

Just because anecdotal evidence includes some facts doesn't mean the evidence as a whole is reliable or true.

For example, I could just as easily tell you that 2+2 is 4 and that I am TSM Dyrus but it doesn't make it true even if part of that statement was...

Why do you keep doing this to yourself, Cliff? Last time you tried to argue that being tied to a resource like mana or energy was just as good as being resourceless (which in no way is true). Now you're arguing with me about the very definition of "anecdotal evidence"?

"And I asked for your experience from that particular game, not the maths behind the matchup. Your game =/= the views you expressed in all your posts. The things in your posts are your 3rd person view while i'm asking for your 1st person view. Please? (since saying it once doesn't seem to be enough...)" - Cliff

Why would my views change because I'm playing? Do the numbers suddenly change or something? Is LoL wikia all a lie?

And since you asked so nicely, simply put, I don't find Garen to be a counter for Riven given the state he's in. He's not threatening in lane, his passive is anti-aggression because it requires him backing away from taking damage to have any effect, and Garen ends up pushing lane a lot easier allowing for safer farming as Riven.

And don't even get me started about asking you to respond to points more than once...

'''"Well, 420-ish damage in 3 seconds from 1 ability which is AoE and from a full tank is something. And if he uses Q + E + AA's on an ADC followed by R can kill him/her." - Cliff'''

Maining as ADC/Support, I'm honestly having a hard time coming up with a top lane champion I'm less afraid of than Garen. Garen's only CC requires him to literally run up to you and tag you...

Trynd can't die, can slow you if you turn your back, has a gapclosing spin that doesn't require you to stand in it for 3 seconds. Renek has huge burst in tankiness, 2 gap closers, a stun, armor shred. Nasus is just scary if he withers you into an old man. There's still Jax's aoe stun and hybrid damage/armor+resists, Rengar's burst/invisibility, Malph's initiate, Wu's godly ult, and Riven...

Yeah, Garen can get really tanky but you really should just give up trying to promote his damage as being even remotely significant.

'''"A few of the mistakes I remember, when you said Wukong's ult could be cancelled, I had said it couldn't to which you replied that you forgot how broken his ult was.... Another mistake being your statement that Riven needs to only build AD while other tops has to build AS. When I asked for further explanation, you just ignored it. Much wow, such ignorance." - Cliff'''

I don't remember the Wukong bit. That sounds like the debate you were having with someone about Wu vs Riven which I barely touched (because you derailed that thread).

I never made a "mistake" about Riven needing to prioritize AD over AS compared to other champs. I've repeatedly posted it several times that Riven favours AD and CDR.

'''"Hmm, I'm notorious for ignoring points? I'm pretty sure I replied to every point you've posted here as well as any other points I had replied to earlier. Meanwhile, you read the whole thing, quote parts of a point and reply to it separately, while ignoring some points as well." - Cliff'''

Hahahahahahaha XD



Yes, Cliff, that's exactly how it's been. I'm the one who selective quotes, bombards the chat with garbage, and then never replies to points. I'm the one crying about you quoting everything I say because you keep catching me with my pants down. That sounds exactly like me.

Geez. It must be a swell living inside that head of yours.

'''"And me imitate you? Oook, think ehatever you want. I just say it like how I see it." - Cliff'''

Yeah, imitate. Look over all our old posts. I already called you out on it numerous times. Have you even read some of your older posts? I call you out for ignoring my points and the very next post you're falsely calling me out on it.

'''"EDIT : As a side note, i'll be trying to refrain myself from commenting to you. Its just a waste of time, braincells and i'm not a fan of simply being accused of one thing and another." - Cliff'''

And yet you're here. Derailing. Flaming. And likely to get yet another thread removed.

Lets break down what you contributed in this last post:

- Putting words into my mouth

- Spending the majority of the post flaming me and then telling me I'm self-victimizing

- Trying to re-define a word: anecdotal evidence

- Reinforming everyone that Armor counters AD

- Ignoring the obvious elephant in the room that tanky Garen is not a damage-dealing threat when compared to all the other top lane picks

- Accusing and projecting your flaws onto me yet again

- Admitting you don't like being accused of "things" (i.e. the truth)