Talk:Vel'Koz/@comment-9048637-20151108223258/@comment-9008617-20151121212438

" When I talked about "free" stats, I meant "free" purely in the sense of "free in terms of gold". " 

Opportunity cost??? LOL what?? They aren't "free" in any sense because it came at the cost somewhere else whether you're giving up AP or MPEN for your CDR runes and each of those have a gold value. Flat AP or MPEN typically being worth more than scaling CDR until a certain point - and I don't mean gold efficiency. Also I fucking hate "gold efficiency" since it's a broken metric. Even if there was an item that was 5000% gold efficient it doesn't mean dick if it's only sole purpose was to restore "energy" on Velkoz.

Your metric is really flawed and hard to actually put a value on. For instance, if you're behind and you have your scaling CDR, what good is it if you have zero AP items? Or if you have no mpen and they're stacking big magic resist items already?

" Is having a bit more CDR necessarily going to let you turn a game? No, but then neither is having 10 more AP necessarily. I'd honestly rather trust the CDR. But maybe I'm wrong.      But my suggestion is trading out three scaling AP blues. I find that well worth, personally "

10% CDR is the equivalent of 6 Glyphs not 3.

In terms of rune efficiency, 3 scaling AP glyphs gives 9 AP at 18 whereas 2 Flat AP Quints gives 10 AP at level 1.

Meanwhile 6 scaling CDR glyphs gives 10% CDR at 18 whereas 2 Flat CDR Quints gives 5% CDR at level 1 or 2 Scaling CDR Quints gives 10% CDR at 18.

Point being, you're giving up a lot of early game strength by giving up the Flat AP Quints for scaling CDR. The Flat AP Quints are one of the strongest and most efficient runes in the game for APCs; they are up there with armor/hp seals. Scaling runes in general make you especially weak early game because they do nothing for you early. Speaking as an ADC/Support main, it's your support's job to help your ADC get ahead in lane - not the other way around. You're going to get bullied and cause both you and your ADC to fall behind.

" Mana gating is usually something to be wary of, yes, but if we're talking past laning phase (which, seeing as we're discussing scaling runes and full build, we are per force)... "

We're not talking about post laning phase though per force. If we could ignore laning phase and skip straight to level 18 and full build then everyone would be running scaling runes (i.e. scaling AD, scaling HP, scaling MR, etc over their flat counterparts).

" Yes, it's possible to OOM yourself if you've gone Morello's over Athene's and you're in a very extended siege "

I'm not sure about this season since grievous wounds is available on more items (i.e. Mortal Reminder) but Morello's was the go-to item over Athene's in season 5 unless you were running against a very high AP threat team. Morello's offers 33% more AP, a source of grievous wounds, and costs 250 gold less than Athenes.

The most popular items that the pro players get are Liandry's (35%), Morellos (14%), and Rylais/Frostqueen's (9%).

" Finally, bear in mind that CDR scales cumulatively: the last point of CDR is worth more than the first. To see why this is the case, consider that if you have an ability with 10s base cooldown, the first 10% CDR will shave 10% (1s) off its current cooldown. But the next 10% will shave off 11% - since 1s is a ninth of 9s, not a tenth. And so on.   "

That's a silly way to look at it. It's all perspective. You're changing what the point of relevance is. This doesn't change the fact that on a 10 sec CD spell that each 10% CDR will lower the CD by 1 second flat.

10s CD with 40% CDR is a 6 second CD spell.

I know what you're trying to say but it's really picking at straws to make an argument.

" But I do think that it's hard to argue that max CDR isn't optimal on him. "

Now you're just trying too hard to oversimplify.

Absolutely no one is arguing that max CDR is bad to have on any champion that's reliant on spells and CDs but rather what is the most efficient and practical build to achieve the most success with Velkoz?