Talk:Quinn/@comment-4094339-20130507052216/@comment-4834593-20130511211636

So we're agreed that more is always better, right?

True.

You haven't considered that not everyone reaches 3000 max health (i.e. most carries) and max health can be quite low in early to mid game and few reach 3000 health that early. Being an active, this also requires you to be within range of the target. And in order to benefit from the stolen health, you must not be close to full health yourself otherwise there's nothing to heal.

'''Most of the time you'll be using BotRK on bruisers to kite them. The range is about equal to your autoattack range though.'''

Since you said Trinity is a bad item on "ALL ADCs" then I'm not sure why you just limit it to one champ now. The slow from Trinity is always up and since most ADCs make use of high attack speed this means there are more opportunities to proc the slow.

I would say that the BotRK active is much more better during escapes or chases though generally as you gain the stolen movement speed.

'''I'm limiting it to one champion because we're talking about Quinn. I can do this for every AD carry if you want. Also I have hundreds of experiences of Trinity's slow not proccing when you need it. 25% chance is unreliable. Just like you can't rely on critting at the right moment when you have Infinity Edge and no other crit items.'''

Yes, 10% more.

Now you talk about it like it's nothing, while you didn't do so with the AD.

Nope, Trinity has a 10% crit chance.

'''Makes Trinity Force even more useless if that's true. I'm pretty sure it's AT LEAST 15 though...'''

That 3% more movement speed from Trinity Force over Phantom Dancer is about 10 or so movement speed on the slower base ADCs which is actually a noticeable chunk in the game...

'''Furor grants 4 times this difference. Not blindly buying Homeguard will already solve the problem.'''

Almost all ADCs have some skill(s) that scale off of AP (i.e. Ezreal). So that extra 30 AP may not mean an extra 100 magic damage but it's still free damage.

'''Ezreal has 4 abilities scaling off AP. Quinn has 1. Or do you say you're also building Trinity Force on Tristana and Varus?'''

Having more mana can't hurt for most ADCs.

'''It can't hurt. But that doesn't mean you need it.'''

Doing 150% on your basic attack on an ADC every 2 seconds after a skill use is bad because...?

'''As I already said, you don't space out your abilities on Quinn. Taking the lowest cooldown, you get it every SEVEN seconds, not two seconds.'''

And it's only usable every 90 seconds and only used on one target that has to be within range. Whereas Trinity's movement speed passive is 8% all day. And the slow is 30% for melees and 20% for ranged ADCs and procs 1 in 4 hits which ain't too shabby when you're an ADC who stacks attack speed which Trinity already brings a decent +30% aspd.

However, teamfights normally don't last more than ~10 seconds, after which you don't need it for 90 seconds (sure it's not 60 seconds by he way?).

"30 AD

250 health

30% Attack Speed

20% Crit chance

Now what does a BotRK offer for 800 gold less?

25 AD

225 (effective) health

40% attack speed

A passive that grants an average of 50 bonus damage PER AUTOATTACK on a squishy, or 75+ on a bruiser or tank."

There's no question that BotRK is a good weapon for the current health stacking meta and I almost always get it (sometimes even first). But you basically disregarded the AP bonus, the max mana bonus, the movement speed bonus, the icy passive, and the spellblade passive... seems like a lot to disregard when comparing items.

Sometimes oversimplifying isn't a good thing. :)

I disregarded 15 damage per seven seconds, as 2 dps is NOTHING on an AD carry who has 1000 dps already.

I disregarded the mana because you back with 2k gold anyways after every teamfight, you have 840 base mana, a full ability cycle costs 230 mana, if you use both Q and E five times (and don't try to tell me you use it five times in one teamfight) it's 750 mana, not counting mana regen and any blue buffs you might take from killing the enemy mid.

'''I disregarded the movement speed bonus because Furor + BotRK + Phantom Dancer (which you will want anyways for Ignore Unit Collision) + Ult + W passive mean you can already kite or chase anything but Hecarim. This 10 movement speed doesn't change that.'''

'''I disregarded the Icy passive for the same reason - You can already escape from everything and chase everything. Believe me, I've been jumped on by three of those AP carries/AD Casters/AD bruisers or whatever they were, and I escaped. Oh yeah, and I'd like to mention that, if you are trying to escape, you don't really have the time to autoattack anyways.'''

'''The Spellblade passive grants about 150 damage per 7 seconds, which is 20 damage per second. While it's more than the AP, it's still neglectible.'''

Sometimes oversimplifying isn't a good thing, but while these stats may not be useless on Quinn, they grant 22 dps, and for the rest unneeded luxery stats that are mostly hurting your AD*AS*Crit chance-combination, which is the reason AD Carries deal so much damage endgame.