Talk:Force of Nature/@comment-8468980-20130716013926/@comment-5209745-20130803194751

''"I'd love to see an argument explaining why he's wrong. Instead you just tell me that he is without explaining your thoughts." "No his best argument was FoN posessed three big stats that few champs wanted all at the same time on the same item. Singed. Really, that's it."''

No. It wasnt just Singed. But I'm not going to throw shame on you, here are my reasons for why he has went downhill:

He was wrong in first place when he removed Madred's and Ionic spark, replacing them with BotRK and Statikk shiv, when he could've just fixed them and let the four items coexist. Cause, you know, BotRK=/=Madred's, and Statikk=/=Spark, despite what some uneducated people may think.

He was wrong in second place when he privatized TBC just for AD casters when the old TBC was fine, just underrated, and specially when Youmuu's is a real noobtrap only useful on a character or two, thus really needing the rework he intended for TBC. But hey, let's just keep letting those noobs to build it on Riven, Renekton and Shyvana. LOL.

He was wrong in third place when he globalized Warmog's instead of letting it be a tank item, thus resulting in the "Oh noes, everybody is building Warmog's!" two consecutive nerfs. Which on the other hand, references to the fact that this item should've not be removed in first place. If you think that "three big stats that few champs wanted" is actually true, think again about Youmuu's case, because everybody can make use of those, but nobody wants CDR and crit chance on the same item. Actually the characters I've mentioned in FoN's favour are far more from the zero characters who can build Youmuu's effectively, maybe common people have a better eye for item management than Xyph? At least every tank wanted HP regen and MR, while, as I said before, the MS could've been teared away when S3 began, just like MR was chopped away from Lich bane.

Lately, he was wrong when he said that, prior to 3.8, that tanks weren't in a bad spot. Sure, champ. They weren't. Not having a viable way of sustain thanks to his nerfs, and not having a viable way of survivality due the armor/mr penetration changes and the global nerfs to every tank item doesn't leaves tanks champions in a bad spot. Sarcasm off.

Please, just tell me you already noticed what I've told you, before I did, and that you actually doubt Xyph's ways. Because if not, you're leaving yourself in the same bad spot he is, despite what you think about FoN.

"The other champs you mention bought Aegis because they're junglers and didn't need much more MR due to Mercs and HP. Buying a giant chunk of pure MR made no sense, every AP mage ignores it with Void staff and it does nothing for any other damage type. Meanwhile, if you have more Hp than an ap mage can chunk you for, you've invalidated them AND hp helps you survive physical damage too. So most tankier champs really bought very little MR and piled on the armor and health, because they didn't need much mr. Aegis, Mercs, Wits/Hex, and SV were the best MR items during S2."

So, you think that a character like Annie can become a tank, but you don't see how somebody with a slow clear time like Voli might actually preffer to go top instead of jungling, right? Or how the early health costs of Mundo actually creep him in the jungle?

Btw, NOW is when getting a good chunk of MR makes less sense due the flawed mechanism changes. In S2 it was actually effective. They needed it, they need it now, and thinking that they don't need it just addresses to the same flawed logic that Xyph tries to spread about "Magic damage should be true damage, let yourself go and admit it". Aegis, Merc's and Wits were just the first line of MR stacking in S2, not being very effective, but at least a start, Hex/MoM was the only good alternative to FoN, and SV was just a second-tier regen item, kinda noob-trap until it was buffed in S3. And as a Mundo player, I'm serious, there wasn't any reason to build it unless you were behind.  "You seem to think Mundo, Singed, and Voli are tanks when they're really bruisers. I'm not sure you understand what makes a champ tank-viable or "innately" a tank."

 And you don't seem to understand that a tank is a more defensive than offensive bruiser, thus becoming a damage-soaking character, better known as "tank". Mundo and Voli at best will build one damage item and, maybe, a Sunfire cape. If you're getting more than that, you're building them wrong. And then, there are bruisers like Warwick who take "dual" items that give him offensivity and defense, like FM, and maybe taking one or two real tank items, like Randuin's.

All that said, this affront to tanks has been kinda solved with the introduction of Cowl of the spectre and the improvement to BV and SV. Let's just see how long it takes until Xyph says something retarded as "Herp derp, these doesn't seem pretty to me, DURRR" and removes them. Any bets for their retirement at the beginning of S4?