Talk:Lee Sin/@comment-25393872-20140907013348/@comment-10590654-20140912150051

Disclaimer: In my humble opinion of course.

See 4.14 nerfs, now he has a slow, reveal, a meh 2 sec shield and a kick as far as team utility goes, if lifesteal, an execute, as on 2 autos and 2 dashes count as utility then as you wish, but honestly now he actually has a lategame weakness and can be 1v1ed early by some champs or at least less destroyed, which leads to our current rise of some tank junglers and J4 and Vi as the new "lizard bruiser" junglers, with J4 for engage comps and Vi for dive or pick more like.

If you want real utility, J4 has a flag with AS buff, an MS slow as well, a shield for himself which gives vision, a knockup, creates an aoe wall as well as an armor shred and if you really like a bonus crit damage stuff thing passive idk if that counts.

Vi has percent hp damage, a knockback dash, a passive shield that actually scales (no AP lee can get trinity arguments please i beg you), as steroid on a skill, auto resets (arguably lee can kinda reset but ya know its not as blatant), and of course the unstoppable dash of doom.

Now I'm gonna rant on each phase of the game to make it clearer because transition is one of Lee's contested areas:

-Early Lee beats all, the AS slow removal means in duels he loses the autoattack edge he used to have (aka passive plus debuff 60% gap), so the guys like Jarvan Vi trundle or udyr are less affected. The rest aka mobile monstrous ganks and safety stay the same ofc.

-Mid game, you start grouping and still have damage etc but start feeling the as slow utility being lost, you need to buy damage to be relevant otherwise just a slow and a kick won't help your team. He still stays good because of the skirmish aspect mobi etc, but he will start having a harder time in group fights ( builds damage and can zone an adc that hard unless able to assassinate)

-Late he falls off for real, he only has a kick, either has damage and has a hard time engaging or has to dive like an assassin which is hard since Q is blockable by tanks and you wont be able to QRQ unless you isolate or flank the enemy team. Insec is going to be the prime argument here but is nowhere near as reliable, adc can flash it, dash it, dodge Q, have his supp block it, it's not as good as other stuff. The peel is still there but you can AS slow the enemy vayne/kog nor the evil jax diving your graves.

There is no denying lee is still good, even fantastic, but to say he's OP and still a monstrous threat is either underestimating other junglers, or thinking that the AS slow (one of the omg i can lag but still be useful mechanics^^) was useless is missing out on one of the highest hidden power spells in the game, in UNOvven's words "The AoE whither".

TLDR: Read first and last paragraph